41716 6JUN88-0103 General Information
VACATIONS?
From: KENHALTER To: JIMREED
Wow! Your vacation sounds exciting! Where are you going next!?
The Persian Gulf? Or perhaps L.A.? Maybe you should post a message
in the forum to find out whether or not anyone has an UZI you can
borrow! Hey! Take it easy out there.
Ken Halter
41782 8JUN88-2217 General Information
For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41716)
From: RICKADAMS To: JIMREED
Subject: USEFUL PHRASES TO KNOW WHEN TRAVELLING IN MOSLEM AREAS
Date: 5 Jun 88 20:42:01 GMT
USEFUL PHRASES TO KNOW WHEN
TRAVELLING IN MOSLEM AREAS:
AKBAR KHALI-KILI HAFTIR LOTFAN.
Thank you for showing me your marvelous gun.
FEKR GABUL CRADAN DAVAT PAEH GUSH DIVAR.
I am delighted to accept your kind invitation to lie on the floor
with my arms above my head and my legs apart.
SHOMAEH FEKR TAMOMEH OEH GOFTEH BANDE.
I agree with everything you have ever said or thought in your life.
AUTO ARREREGH DAVATEMAN MANO SEPAHEH HAST.
It is exceptionally kind of you to allow me to travel in the trunk
of your car.
FASHAL-EH TUPEHMAN NA DEGAT MANO GOFTAM CHEESHAYEH MOHEMARA
JEBEHKESHVAREHMAN.
If you will do me the kindness of not harming my genital appendages
I will gladly reciprocate by betraying my country in public.
KHREL JEPAHEH MANEH VA JAYEH AMERIKAHEY.
I will tell you the names and addresses of many American spies
travelling as reporters.
BALLI, BALLI, BALLI!
Whatever you say!
MATERNIER GHERMEZ AHLEIEH, GHORBAN.
The red blindfold will be lovely, excellency.
TIEKH NUNEH OB KHRELEH BEZORG VA KHRUBE BOYAST INO BEGERAM.
The water-soaked bread crumbs are delicious, thank you. I must have
the recipe.
41793 9JUN88-0103 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41782)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: RICKADAMS
Tho humorous, the implication of that file that Arabs are crazy
fanatical terrorists and that the United States is a moral,
reasonable, law abiding country is rather grossly
hypocritical. After all… Kadaffi never made any attempt
to assinate Ronald Regan or members of his family. Yet
Regan DID kill one of Kadaffi’s children, and a number of
other civilians in a multimillion dollar operation that
was a FAR more serious act of terrorism than any done by
Lybia. Tho I have no great love for or trust in
Kadaffi, I must say, having carefully read a lot of what
he has said in public and compared it to statements on the
same subject by Ronald Regan, that Muamar Kadaffi is a far
saner, more reasonable person than our current Commander
in Chief. That is not intended to say a great deal
FOR Kadaffi, by the way!
—marty
41826 10JUN88-0020 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41782)
From: JIMREED To: RICKADAMS
Hey, Rick!
I love the “terrorist phrase book” . . .
. . . but to do me any good, it needs to be in phonics.
I have these great Spanish phrases memorized, but if I get answered back
in anything but English I am usually lost.
— Jim
41814 9JUN88-2229 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41793)
From: COCONAUT To: MARTYGOODMAN
WOULD RONALD REAGAN HAVE LEFT
HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN BEHIND
AND FLED TO A SAFE HIDEOUT IF
WASHINGTON, D.C. WERE ATTACKED.
I THINK NOT! PERHAPS MR.
KADAFFI IS SANE, BUT HE
CERTAINLY HAS NO SENSE OF
RESPONSIBILITY AND HE CERTAINLY
DOES THINGS THAT DO NOT APPEAR
TO BE SANE, SUCH AS DELIBERATELY
PICKING FIGHTS WITH LARGE,
POWERFUL NATIONS SUCH AS THE
U.S.
DOUGFISHER
41827 10JUN88-0020 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41814)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCONAUT
Oh… come ON! Ronald Regan does not stay GLUED to the immediate
presence of his wife and children. No one does, nor is there
any reason for them to.
It is twisted logic indeed to blame Kadaffi for the
terrorist assault Regan made on his family!!
Kinda like blaming a rape victim as being responsible
for the crime because she was walking down the street that
the rapist was on.
Make no mistake… the country you live in is as guilty
of perpetrating and supporting acts of terror and slaughter
of innocent civilians as any of the those it hypocritically
condems for such acts. More so, actually, if you were to
judge by numbers killed, or amount of dollars spent supportting
terror. Figures? How’s one BILLION dollars a year
sent to Israel to help them build atomic bombs
and slaughter palestinian civilian? Any money
Kadaffi ever gave to terrorists pales by comparison.
What about the support our government gives to scum
like the ruling elite in South Africa, Guatamala, and the like?
Terrorist? Kid… you ain’t seen NOTHING until you can see
the mass butchery that our CIA engineers in central and south
america! Yes.. there are other nuts in the world.
Many of the Arab states are insane theocracies, (and the others are insane
Feudal states), and certainly
they DO support various terrorist acts here and there.
But there are no terrorists as murderous as those
with their finger in the nuclear button of the US.
—marty
41926 11JUN88-2335 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41827)
From: COCONAUT To: MARTYGOODMAN
MARTY-
WHILE I DO NOT APPROVE OF SOME
OF THE THINGS THAT OUR GOV’T
HAS DONE IN THE PAST, OR
CONTINUES TO DO, IN TODAYS
WORLD WE ARE FORCED INTO DOING
THINGS WE DO NOT LIKE AS A
MATTER OF SELF-PRESERVATION.
IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS ABOUT
THE MORALITY OF THE US, JUST
ASK ANY LIBYAN/AMERICAN,
IRANIAN/AMERICAN, SOVIET/
AMERICAN, VIETNAMESE/AMERICAN,
ETC., ETC., AD INFINITUM WHERE
THEY WOULD PREFER TO LIVE. I
THINK THEIR PRESENCE HERE
PROBABLY SHOULD ANSWER THAT
QUESTION IN ADVANCE. AGAIN, AS
TO COLONEL KADAFFI, WHAT SANE
90# WEAKLY WOULD WALK UP AND
KICK SUPERMAN IN THE SHIN?
DOUGFISHER
41940 12JUN88-0712 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41926)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCONAUT
What sane superman would go around kicking OTHERS in the shin, eh?
As for third worlders wanting to live here, that hardly proves
this country is so wonderful.
I mean, folks ALWAYS want to go to richer countries…
regardless of whether the rich countries GOT rich
by RAPING others.
This country has made a long and consistant policy of
supporting some of the most vicious butchers and rotten
governments around the world, and overturning ones
where the population rose up against these slime.
It typically defends such practices as “fighting
totaltarian communism”, and freely brands as
“communist” anyone to the left of their appointed
right wing strongmen. This policy has been especially
consistent in Central and South America… and
especially blatant as well.
Like Stalin and Hitler, the government of the US
repeadedly uses the approach of telling its public
“The Big Lie”, and indulging in the most brazen
hypocrisy. An excellent example is the current
mania regarding the “immoral Drug Dealing Noriega”.
Completely apart from the fact that the US was
perfectly happy with Noriega and his drug dealins
as long as he cooperated with the CIA, there is
chosen to opposed various South Amercian governments
that are riddled with cocaine trade king pins.
Still more hypocritical is the very active
participation in the heroin trade that the US
secret services engaged in in the 60′s and ’70′s,
bringing in great gobs of heroin from the “fertile
traingle” in Southeast Asia. Or its more recent
trading in drugs to help the Contra’s raise money.
Our presidents have one after the other ranted
and raved about “human rights violations” while
at the same time violating more human rights
than literally any other country on the planet.
Time and again, the majority of nations were
for rather forceful efforts to end apartheid
in South Africa, but the US vehemently opposed
weakening what was a strategically “friendly”
government. It even looked the other way
while Israel and France gave South Africa
nuclear weapons technology.
I urge you to look a bit more skeptically at the
pronouncements of this government, and to do a bit of
background reading… by authors on the right, the left,
and in the center… on various areas, particularly
Latin America.
My own experience, after such study, is that this
government lies just about as much to its population
as does the Russian government lie to its people.
Not really particularly more, or less.
Oh, the press here is freer than in the Soviet Union,
that is true. But the main press organs tend to
voluntarily keep reasonably within the “party line”
on most critical national issues.
By the way… take a close look at this presidentail
campaigne. You almost NEVER EVER hear ANYTHING
about what positions one or another candidate takes
on particular issues. Instead about 99% of the time
spent by TV media discussing the candidates in the
primaries and election is on rehashing of POLLS
as to which one is leading, or on personal issues
(Hart’s “infidelity”, or Bush being or not being
a “whimp”, or whatever). Anyway, there is little
choice, for both candidates in this upcoming
election have the same demogogic and hypocritic
line on drugs nationally and internationally,
and both support continuing to keep right
wing dictatorships in Latin America, and support
toppling the govenments in those few places there
where the butchers were oferthrown.
Oh well!
—marty
41979 12JUN88-2248 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41940)
From: COCONAUT To: MARTYGOODMAN
PERSONALLY, I AM QUITE HAPPY TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE I AM
FREE TO PRACTICE MY FAITH,
WHERE I AM FREE TO EARN A
LIVING AS A CHOOSE, AND WHERE
I AM FREE TO LEAD MY LIFE AS I
CHOOSE, PROVIDED IT IS NOT TO
THE DETRIMENT OF OTHER CITIZENS.
GRANTED, THE PROBLEMS WITH THIS
COUR GOVERNMENT ARE MANY, BUT
THIS IS PARTLY THE FAULT OF THE
“WE THE PEOPLE FOR NOT TAKING
(OR WANTING TO TAKE) A MORE
ACTIVE ROLE IN ITS OPERATION.
IF YOU FEEL SO STRONGLY, WHY
DON’T YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT OUR
FOREFATHERS INTENDED! I GET
RATHER TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT
HOW TERRIBLE OUR SYSTEM, OUR
PRESIDENT AND OUR ELECTED
REPRESENTATIVES ARE FROM PEOPLE
WHO ARE UNWILLING TO MAKE AN
EFFORT TO EFFECT A CHANGE.
UNFORTUNATELY, THESE PEOPLE ARE
TURNING THIS SYSTEM INTO A
PEOPLLE BY THE GOVERNMENT, FOR
THE GOVERNMENT, ETC. BY
CONTINUING TO ELECT OFFICIALS
THAT DO NOTHING BUT ENACT NEW
CONTROLS OVER US AND DO FAVORS
FOR OBSCURE SPECIAL INTEREST
GROUPS.
DOUGFISHER
41984 13JUN88-0139 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41979)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCONAUT
Doug,
(1) I AM trying to do something about it by occasinally
using this forum to air ideas different from those
trumpeted by the countries mass propaganda organs.
(2) You are free to do or say this or that ONLY so
long as you do not threaten the power and privelege
of those at the top of this system. IF it seems like
you might, they will (as they have REPEATEDLY done in
the past “investigate” you, harass you, or, if they
feel it is necessary, frame you on trumped charges
and send you to prison, or even just march on in and
gun you and your family down in cold blood. All of these
things have gone on repeatedly in this country.
I admit that cold blooded murder of political opponents
is practiced here rather seldom, but it IS done.
Remember Fred Hampton?
(3) I do agree that the US currently offers more civil
liberties to those who do not rock the boat than
most other countries. But again… I emphasize that
the freedom is somewhat illusory. Look what
happenned to that chap who sat on the railroad
tracks a year ago to determ shipments of munitions
to Central America? Did they stop the train and
arrest him? NO. They ordered the train to run him
down, the evidence indicates. Folks WANTED to SEND
a MESSAGE to all would be protesters of this
government’s butchery that even peaceful civil
disobediance directed at this bloodsucking foriegn
policy is NOT tolerated.
Another problem with this “democracy” is the relative
ignorance of the population. It is estimated that abouut
a third of the population is functionally illiterate.
(adult population). That fact, and the limited amout
of real INFORMATION available about even presidential
candidates during a national compaign, let alone
local and state government officials, pretty well
assures that MOST of the time there will be no
serious challenge to mainstream policies. I note
here that the illiteracy rate in this country
is considerably HIGHER than in other “western”
countries. So is, by the way, the infant
mortality rate. Which is enormously high
among blacks.
But I’m digressing.
You refrained to address the issue of the US government
policy in Latin America or South Africa. Do you defend
that policy? What do you know of it? From what sources?
(I mention that issue because I started on that issue,
because it is a very important one, and because
it is something OTHER than the drug issue, which
I may have beaten to death here of late).
Care to comment?
—marty
42012 13JUN88-2304 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 41984)
From: COCONAUT To: MARTYGOODMAN
MARTY-
OBVIOUSLY I DO NOT KNOW YOUR
AGE, AS I HAVE NEVER SEEN YOU.
AS YOUR PHILOSOPHIES AND MINE
ARD THE GUESS THAT YOU ARE
BETWEEN THE AGES OF 40 AND 45.
PRETTY CLOSE, HUH? I GUESS I
AM WHAT YOU WOULD CALL A MEMBER
OF THE NEW CONSERVATIVE AGE ALA
ALEX KEATON (30 YEARS OLD).
MARTY, I MAY NOT ALWAYS AGREE
WITH WHAT YOU AND OTHERS HAVE
TO SAY, BUT I WOULD CERTAINLY
O SAY IT. I KNOW THAT’S AN
OLD PHRASE, BUT IT IS TRUE.
AS TO CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE AND
THE TRAIN INCIDENT YOU MENTIONED
I CONSIDER MYSELF FAR TOO
INTELLIGENT TO SIT IN FRONT OF
A MOVING TRAIN. I KNOW OF NO HARD EVIDENCE THAT THE TRAIN WAS
DARED NOT TO STOP, BUT IS IT
NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE
ENGINEER WAS FRIGHTENED BY A
GROUP OF PEOPLE (IN HIS MIND
POSSIBLY DANGEROUS) AND WAS
SIMPLY AFRAID TO STOP.
ANYONE WITH ANY COMMON SENSE
WOULD MOVE OUT OF THE WAY, AS
TRAINS OBVIOUSLY TAKE QUITE A
DISTANCE TO COME TO FULL HALT.
IF SAID TRAIN WERE MOVING SLOWLY
THE GENTLEMAN HAD PLENTY OF TIME
AND WARNING TO MOVE. IF IT
WERE MOVING AT A HIGH RATE OF SPEED, THE GENTLEMAN WAS CRAZY TO
SIT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
AS TO THE PROBLEMS TO OUR SOUTH
I DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH
KNOWLEDGE OF THE SITUATION TO
BASE AN INTELLIGENT OPINION.
I’M APPALLED AT THE POSSIBILITY
THAT OUR GOVERNMENT WOULD STOOP
TO ABETTING THE DRUG TRAFFIC,
AND I THINK THAT ANYONE THAT
CAN BE PROVED TO HAVE DONE SO
SHOULD HAVE THEIR DAY IN COURT
TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY SHOULDN’T
BE SENT AWAY PERMANENTLY.
UNFORTUNATELY WITH THE SIZE
OF OUR GOVERNMENT, NO ONE PERSON
COULD POSSIBLY HAVE KNOWLEDGE
OR CONTROL OF ALL GOINGS-ON.
WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO
AGREE ON SOME POINTS. I AM
BEGINNING TO REGRET GETTING
INTO THIS TOPIC, AS I CERTAINLY
WISH NO ANIMOSITY WITH ANOTHER
MEMBER OF THIS SIG, ESPECIALLY
THE SIGOP!
DOUGFISHER
42025 14JUN88-0631 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42012)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCONAUT
Doug,
Well.. your’re a bit high on yyour estimate of my age…
I’m not quite yet 40. I’ll celebarte te that birthday the
same daty Trotsky would have celebrated it on the Gregorian
Calendar (the one used in Russia prior to the 1Revolution).
No… I don’t feel animosity.
I do think you may be a bit naieve in your apparant trust
in the idea that this government is basically honest
and well meaning.
I find little to like among darlings of either
the liberals or the conservatives of this country.
Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves only becaueuse
(by his own admission) it was EXPEDIENT to the
goals of the industrial north in its conflict with
the South. FDR turned away boatloads of refugees
from Nazi death camps, and, along with that scum
Winston Chruchill, deliberately refused to order
that the tracks to the death camps be boombed.
John F Kennedy started the Vietnam War.
I’d include among my list of TRUE American
heros men like John Brown and John Reed.
(Note that John Brown is typically represented
as a mad fanatic in those packs of lies that go
by the name of History Books. )
Doug, believe me: This government is not
qualatively more likely to tell the truth
to its people about what it is doing than is
any other govrernment… alledgedly capitalist
or alledgedly communist.
As for this government’s involvement in drug traffiking,
that was well documented in the case of CIA involvement
in drug transport from the “golden triangle”
of Souteheast Asisa when that was a major source
of heroin. It was NOT an abberation , an act of a
few rennegade criminals. It was an official plan and policy.
Currrently the governments of the major cocaine producing
countries of South American are propped up by this
country, whaile this country piously crises “Drug Lord”
at Noriega. Oh… don’t get me wrong. The charges
of drug dealing are most likely quite TRUE of
Noriega. But so what? There are The top government
officials of many South American governments that we installed
by or preserved by this country’s aid who are even more
involved with drug dealing. Noreiga’s REAL crime was to
dare to betray his CIA buddies and expose them. THAT was what
started the witch hunt agaist him. Prior to that, his drug
dealing was equally well known, but tacitly supported by
this country.
Tho we may have different political and possibly even spiritual
philosophies, I think the main difference is you tend to trust
this governent. I suggest that is a fundamental mistake.
DON’T take what the government says as true without confirming
evidence from a source NOT committed to bolstering the
government. There still are many available here.
I suggest that taking this goverment’s propaganda machine
at its word is ultimately potentially one of the biggest
mistakes anyone can make. At least in the Stalinist
(“communist”) countries the population appears to maintain a
healthy skepticism of its governments pronouncements.
Americans are far more brainwashed into complacency and
unquestionning acceptance of any lies, however absurd, this
government will tell.
—marty
42039 14JUN88-2035 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42025)
From: HARBIE To: MARTYGOODMAN
in a never ending quest to confuse you (or just because i’m too lazy to find
the right thread again ) I’ll say i am beginning to understand your remark
about RICK pulling your leg . for i am beginning to think you are puling mine .
my frie
nd thinks i am nuts for trying to click on every single joystick point in an 8
X 8 matrix of that corner . no dice , can’t find that point you talked about in
shanghai .
still unrelated , i just got today a replacement disk for word power 3.1 . i
had called them fryday to tell them about that 512k problem i had . I am quite
impressed with the response timee . i forgot to tell them about the glaring om
ission in their manual . they tell you that the TAB function is one of the most
important of the word processor but NOWHERE in the manual do they tell you
which key to use do DO A TAB ! .
more ramblings . when using ados with word power you need not only do the
disable dload bit but also verif off . the scrolling goes kinda strange
otherwise after you save a file
42752 10JUL88-1721 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42025)
From: CCMAN To: MARTYGOODMAN
MARTY,
I AGREE WITH YOU. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OUR COUNTRY AND THOSE SO CALLED
COMMUNIST COUNTRIES THAT YOU MENTIONED IS THAT WE HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK OUT
WHEN WE WANT (EVEN IF YOU WILL BE BRANDED A LUNATIC FOR HAVING UNACCEPTED
IDEAS). ALSO, WE CAN VOTE –BUT M
OST DON’T AND THOSE WHO DO ARE USUALLY UNINFORMED.
CCMAN
42042 14JUN88-2106 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42039)
From: DONHUTCHISON To: HARBIE
VERIFY OFF when using ADOS-3?? That’s Weird City, man! Sounds like
somebody has a buffer at $700 when they shouldn’t have done dat!
-dh-
42056 15JUN88-0100 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42039)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: HARBIE
The Shanghai cursor thingie is not really in the EXTREME lower left.
Rather… it is on the left side of the screen. Hmm… I really should
boot it up some time and find it for you. Or you can feel free
to ask Rick about it.
—marty
42065 15JUN88-0130 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42039)
From: ARTFLEXSER To: HARBIE
Don’t bother with DISABLE:DLOAD. That is unnecessary if you just poke into
$A282-3-4 the values that are normally there under RSDOS
($BD,01,67 I believe). Unlike the DLOAD, you can embed the pokes in the loader
program, so you needn’t type anything (other than the usual RUN statement) to
boot up.
I told Microcom about this, but apparently they have not yet made the change.
The VERIFYOFF is also necessary.
42045 14JUN88-2240 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42042)
From: ZACKS To: HARBIE
Aw c’mon, now, I found the spot. It’s on the left side, not all the
way over, and about a third of the way down the screen. Don’t assume
that the arrow has to move to get to the next spot either, keep clicking.
What happens is that the game goes right to the main menu as if you
had clicked on rgb or composite. The color difference for me with
my CM8 is edges or tiles are yellow instead of gray/black.
ps, having trouble with word power and ados??? Then get TW128.
It works fine with ados.
42066 15JUN88-0132 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42042)
From: ARTFLEXSER To: DONHUTCHISON
Yes, that was my interpretation of the cause of this bug also.
I investigated because I at first thought the trouble to be an incompatibility
with
ADOS-3, but the scrolling is also
screwed up after SAVE under RSDOS 1.0 if you have VERIFY on.
(Though not under RSDOS 1.1, for some strange reason.)
42046 14JUN88-2241 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42045)
From: ZACKS To: HARBIE
Uh, that should have been “edges OF tiles” are yellow.
42068 15JUN88-0137 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42045)
From: ARTFLEXSER To: ZACKS
Word Power also works fine with ADOS, if you follow the instructions in my
reply to HARBIE.
42081 15JUN88-1900 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42045)
From: HARBIE To: ZACKS
TW ? TELEWRITER ?????
slowly i turned ….
(if you don’t get that one , ask RICKADAMS
42082 15JUN88-1902 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42056)
From: HARBIE To: MARTYGOODMAN
i’ll try again as per ZACKS instructions . if i don’t get a wrap around coat
before that !
42083 15JUN88-1904 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42065)
From: HARBIE To: ARTFLEXSER
I saw that fix on CIS (eek i used the ‘c’ word) and put it in line 25 along
with the verify off (a friend of mine calls me paranoid for using verify on as
default with my superb shugart drives)
works great so far .
42765 10JUL88-2159 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42752)
From: FREDMCD To: CCMAN
WE ALSO CHOOSE OUR LEADERS. AND CAN GET RID OF THEM IF THEY GO BAD. (TRY
THIS IN A COMMY COUNTRY.)
42801 11JUL88-1845 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42752)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: CCMAN
Some SIMILARITIES between the US and the Soviet Union are routine
censorship of the media for political purposes.
A recent example in the US:
There was a concert in England dedicated to fighting aparthied
in South Africa in general, and freeing a particular political
prisoner in particular. (A ROCK concert). The artists
involved donated their time to this cause. FOX broadcasting
here paid for rights to transmit it in the US. When they did
run the material, tho, the CAREFULLY edited out EVERY political
word said by ALL performers. Note that the concert was mostly
a CONCERT. But just before or after a given group performed
they would say a few words… a minute or so… relevant
to the political occasion. Usually just a bit of news about
what was happening in South Africa or some words of support
for the cause. EVERY single time this happenned, it was CUT OUT
of the US broadcast version.
Many of the artists were ENRAGED by this action by FOX.
The action WAS, as I understand it, legal, in the sense
that Fox had bought the rights to retransmit the material,
fair and square. And presumeably whatever contract they
got allowed them to edit as they saw fit. Of course,
those who MADE the deal never IMAGINED such outright and
gross castration of the whole idea behind the concert
would be perpetrated, so they apparantly never bothered
so specifically include a clause in the contract preventing
such vicious censorship. (“those who made the deal” =
those who made the deal with FOX … the concert promoters.).
But there you have it… deliberate censorship of
the mass media here, … censorship dedicated to support
for one of the most vicious and hideous goverments
and political “systems” ever devised by man.
Think about this tale next time you consider watching
a FOX broadcasting station… or buying a product
that their network pushes.
—marty
42802 11JUL88-1855 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42752)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: CCMAN
Censorship in other areas? How about THIS:
AIDS was declared by federal government agencies to be an “epidemic”
in 1981. But it was not until 1987 that our president once used
the WORD “AIDS” in public. That’s one reason to consider
the president responsible for thousands of deaths due to AIDS,
because of his inaction in that area.
While I have little sympathy with the current crowd in power
in the Soviet Union, I should note that the immediate
post revolutionary Soviet Union (pre Stalin.. 1917 thru about 1927 or so)
was THE only modern, industrialized country EVER then thru to now
to abolish ALL legislation regulating or penalizing for
consenting sexual behavior amond adults.
In 1923 Grigorii Batkis, then director of the Moskow Institute
for Social Hygiene, published the following:
“Soviet legislation bases itself on the following principle:
It declares the aboslute non interferance of the state and society
into sexual matters so log as nobody is injured and on one’s interests
are encroached upon…” “Concerning homosexuality, sodomy, and various other
forms of sexual gratification, which are set down in European
legislation as offenses aganst public morality — Soviet
legislaton treats these exactly the same as so-called “natural”
intercourse. All forms of sexual intercourse are private
maters.”
This unusual degree of enlightenment and protection of
the the right of consenting adults to enjoy each other
as they please of course disappearred under Stalin.
I wonder how long it will be before ANY “civilized” government
again guarantees its citizens such freedoms.
—marty
43523 2AUG88-0356 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42801)
From: BRENNERS To: MARTYGOODMAN
Marty,
The similarities between The Soviets’ censorship and that of FOX are
interesting to say the least, but what does that have to do with the U.S.
Gov’t? Fox decided (wrongly in my opinion) to edit what it thought to be
sesitive material and had every
legal right to do so. If I were going to be mad at someone for what has
happened I
think I’d throw my stones towards the morons that allowed the contract rights
to include “whatever FOX sees fit to edit”. If they are going to give anyone
the right to censor
their material, they maybe ought to let someone with a little morsavvy do the
negotiating. If you trust the TV bigwigs with anything, they will take it all
and leave you bleeding in the gutter and While I’m sure they won’t let it
happen again, they probably
won’t get another chance.
Bren Stockdale
43524 2AUG88-0402 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 42802)
From: BRENNERS To: MARTYGOODMAN
Marty,
Again, we see the right thinking Soviets come through! I would imagine that
they would not imprison anyone for sodomy, but I would imagine they would not
consider any sodomist a “sane person” and put him in a sanitarium not because
he is a sodomiser, b
ut because he isn’t quite all there. They have ways of dealing witth
“undesirables” that I have not seen you point out in some of your “even handed”
reports.
I do think that if you really believed what you are preaching, you
would be living elsewhere than the U.S. Since you are still here, I am going to
assume that you are merelyy playing Devil’s advocate.
Brenners
43659 5AUG88-0750 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 43523)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BRENNERS
You are in part right in noting that in the Soviet Union
censorship comes quite directly from the government, whereas
here the mechanism of such censorship is often less direct,
and more of a function of a “good old boys network”, rather
than orders from a government censor. However, censorship
here IS real, and quite common. When the government
wants to promote a gross lie, it can rely on most of the
press here towing the mark… in some cases.
For example, the Tonkin Gulf incident (the US version
of the Reischstag Fire, a phoney manufactured incident
to whip up hysteria to initiate the Viet Nam War) was
not questioned by the main line press for years.
Owners and major editors knew that the party line was being
pushed, and refrained from questioning it.
I would agree that this “good old boys” system of censorship
is less tight than that used in the Soviet Union… and that
at times the press will resist government efforts at censorship
here… especially when an individual, as opposed to a
national POLICY… is at stake. Other cases are more gray.
The main stream press DOES print stuff on occasion documenting
what murderous scum the Contras are… but juxtaposes
that to the lies of the US government, which it treats with
equal, if not greater, credance. Thus, it appears “objective”
and “neutral”, while actually supporting death squads
abroad and their masters here.
Yes… at present there probably ARE more civil
liberties here than in any other country… but ONLY
for those who do not challenge those with most
power here.
For those who do, this government has shown time and again
it will stop at nothing… including cold blooded calculated
murder of its citizens… to protect existing power and privelege.
Thus, many of the freedoms we THINK we enjoy are
limited by definit bounds. I am glad to the extent
we do have them… but am under no illusions about
how far they extend.
—marty
43660 5AUG88-0755 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 43524)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BRENNERS
Actually… I am NOT in this case playing devils advocate.
Both the existing American society and existing Stalinist
Soviet societies are rotten to the core, and riddled with
the most neurotic of puritanism. The quote I made was from
a different era… prior to Stalin… and really WAS
government policy in the Soviet union for a short while
after the Russion Revolution.
In that era, prisons and sanatariums were NOT used
to persecute consenting adults engaging in any sexual preferancs
in the Soviet Union. Stalin and his heirs (up thru Gorbachov)
changed that, of course.
—marty
43894 8AUG88-2312 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 43660)
From: BRENNERS To: MARTYGOODMAN
Marty,
An eloquent reply to my queries and I must compliment you on your willing
ness to engage me in such entertaining discussions. While your time in a
classroom has been likely far in excess of mine, I still feel that I must jump
on your case about the wist
ful longings of the “good ol’ days” of pre-Stalin-post-revolution Russia. I
will agree heartily that the interest of the average man suffers greatly under
either current system, however, I look upon our system as have the greater
possibility of change with
in the least amount of time. Changes in the Soviet Union (as Gorbachev is now
painfully realizing) take a near eternity because of the way in which the
system in power stays there. In the United States the elected officials need to
(at least) make the peo
ple believe that they are better off with them in office than anyone else. The
end result (however limited) turns out to be the choice of the mass electorate,
not in the well reased palms of 60 select individuals who happen to all see
things in the same fi
ltered light.
I hate to see any blanket condemnation of what is currently the best system
available to anyone without any constructive ideas on how it could be changed
for the better. Please don’t tell me how wonderful it is in Switzerland or
Sweden because if it we
re not for the power and the frightening aspect of the MAD doctorine (not a
great method, mind you,but effective for the time being) those countries would
not be so free and “well off”. I have to state the obviousabout the reasons
Japan has come so far so
fast is that they are spending virtually nothing on defense and pour billions
into research and development of the leading edge technolgies that we have
become so dependent on. We have borne the brunt of keeping “incompatible
political views” from spreadin
g as fast as it would have without our noses stuck in. If the Kremlin were
calling the shots in Japan, I seriously doubt whether or not I would be able to
afford a computer system let alone afford to spend 30 minute hacking out these
points on my not so ni
mble fingers. So, before I get too worn out to type “bye”…..Thanks for
listening.
Bren Stockdale
43940 9AUG88-2239 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 43894)
From: COCONAUT To: BRENNERS
Well Said.
43960 10AUG88-0355 General Information
RE: For use on your next vacation? (Re: Msg 43894)
From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BRENNERS
The Soviet Union in the years 1917 thru about 1927 or so was
a rather grossly differnt country than the Soviet Union
once Stalin or his heirs (up to and INCLUDING Gorbachov) were
entrenched. I would submit it was a far more democratic country
in that period than the USA ever was.
Of course, one might ask “why the big change?” There are
many answers to that, depending both on ones politics and
one’s view of history… and who one belives, of course.
Reactionaries argue that the degeneration under Stalin
would in any case have been the inevitable fate of such
a misguided attempt to establish an utopia. Socialists
argue that it was the failure of the revolution to spread
thru Europe (it nearly did… just missed in Germany)
and the massive effort by dozens of capitalist countries to overthrow
the revolution in the Soveit Union (even the US sent troops to invade)
that ultimately forced the degeneration. Of course, Stalin’s personal
paranoia and general maddness contributed.
Neiter Sweeden nor Switzerland would be models I would hold
up for social systems. Both are captialist countries,
tho both have some socialized services.
The deeds of the US have constantly been in conflict with
its rhetoric of “freedom and justice”. From the very formation
of this country by slave holders who kept the institution of
slavery (what gross hypocrisy there!!!) to this day, where
racism is still endemic, and where the foriegn policy of this country
consistently props up the most brutal tyrants to make the world
safe for profitable investment.
Who are MY American heros? John Reed and John Brown.
—marty