07/15/88: Sony KV-1311CR by Delphi, | Category: Delphi - General Information | 69 comments - (Comments are closed)

Sony KV-1311CR

42955 15JUL88-1103 General Information
Sony KV-1311CR
From: BILLWILSON To: MARTYGOODMAN

Hi Marty. I meant to send this in here instead of in the Mail section. I recent-
ly received a Sony KV-1311CR and I still get the machine language programs in
black and white, games, ect. I’m probably either doing something that is just
plain simple(wrong), or not doing something at all. Any help or advice (please
go easy on me, I know you’ve probably answered questions like this before). I
also would like to that the owner of Howard Medical, where I purchased the
monitor, and Dave, for being very patient with me in helping me to get the thing
up and running, (pressing the two buttons on the front at the same time). Dave
and I had a very nice chat on the phone, and despite wet coffee beans and a
lousy goverment, you still have a couple of fans out here!!

69 comments to Sony KV-1311CR

  • pucc_unknown

    42957 15JUL88-1549 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 42955)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BILLWILSON

    The folks at Howard Medical are indeed nice people.

    As for color on the KV1311CR…

    It SEEMS like you are asking about getting color in
    the “PMODE 4 artifact color” mode of the computer? No?

    RGB will not under any circumstances render such colors…
    you’ll see a black and white screen with vertical lines
    or patterns. You need to use composite video to see artifact
    colors. Thus, you must hook the composite video jack
    on the Sony to the composite video output jack on the CoCo.

    Now, the Sony is such a high resolution TV that it
    does not do artifacting all that well. Artifact
    colors on the Sony tend to be more pale, in my experience,
    than with other, sloppier, lower res monitors.
    But, at least MY Sony KV1311CR does show artifact colors
    to some reasonable extent.

    Note, too, that you must use the front panel
    to SWITCH between RGB and Composite video inputs.

    Does this help???

    If you need to ask more, it would help me to help you
    if you explained in rather more detail what sort of
    set up you have… how (with what cables going to where)
    you attached the monitor to the computer, and what switches
    on the monitor (if any) you used to try to switch between
    RGB and composite video. AND, it would help a lot if you
    would be very specific in describing the programs that
    “don’t show colors”. Your original note was rather vague,
    and I had to make a number of guesses about what was going
    on when I wrote this reply.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    42960 15JUL88-1901 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 42957)
    From: BILLWILSON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Hello again Marty. Thanks for your quick reply. Your information plus a little
    noodle scratching did the trick. All I had to do was add another cable between
    the CoCo (vidio output) and the vidio input on the monitor and depress just the
    video (notice the difference in spelling) button on the front of the monitor,
    and I was in business. Now I do get the PMODE4 artifact colors. Thanks once
    again for your help-in more ways than one, for I read your column every month.
    —-Bill—–

  • pucc_unknown

    42969 16JUL88-0144 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 42960)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BILLWILSON

    And now…

    I NEED to know….

    I spend a GREAT deal of time writing of an EXHAUSTIVE four
    page documentation sheet for Howard Medical, to be sent off
    with that cable that they include with the Sony (which I made
    That would be most irritating to me.

    IF they did not send it, send me a stamped (45 cents)
    self addressed envelope I will send you the doc sheet for
    that cable… which includes tips on how to get rid of that
    awful Joystick Plug, which messes up the joystick port
    and makes the joystick UNUSEABLE while you use the monitor,
    unless you do one of the fixes I suggest in the sheet.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    42974 16JUL88-0538 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 42969)
    From: BILLWILSON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Hi again, Marty. No, I didn’t receive the documentation that you mentioned.
    The cable that they sent me DOESN’T have the Joystick Plug that you mentioned.
    I think that I will, (if I ever get around to it), send you the SSAE for the
    documentation anyways. More information can’t be as bad as none at all!!
    Thanks once again.
    —Bill

  • pucc_unknown

    43014 17JUL88-0231 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 42974)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BILLWILSON

    Ah! You got one of my CUSTOM SPECIALS… made ONLY for Howard Medical…
    and it will only work with THAT particular Sony KV1311CR, for
    Howard Medical has made a VERY minor modification inside that Sony
    to allow that special cable to work!!!

    In that case… FORGET about the joystick plug…
    but just note that that particular cable requires a source
    of +5 volts on pins 1 or 2 of the 34 pin Sony RGB connector.
    Now, SOME Sony 34 pin RGB connectors have that (the old
    Sony Profeel has +5 volts on pins 1 and 2) and the
    Sony KV2711CR has it there too. For some reason,
    they used a slightly more limited implimentation of
    their own protocol on the KV1311CR. The mod Howard
    Medical did (at my instructions) involved “upgrading”
    pins 1 and 2 of the 34 pin connector to match the
    more eleborate Sony standard used on some of their other
    monitors.

    I had a very special and DIFFERENT documentation sheet
    for those custom jobbies… but I don’t have a copy of THAT
    one around… for some reason I lost my master!

    So… just make a note of what I wrote above, …
    it all means that if you buy ANOTHER KV1311CR from some
    OT work with it unless
    you make an internal modification to bring +5 volts
    to pins 1 and 2 of the 34 pin connector.
    That cable WILL work with the old Sony Profeel
    and the KV2711CR, tho.

    OK?

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43052 17JUL88-1713 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43014)
    From: BILLWILSON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    HI Marty. That is an “OK” on your last message about the custom designed cable.
    Anyways, there is a SSAE on the way to you. Maybe you could put something else
    of use in it for me. By somethnig else of use I mean anything that will fit
    inside it will help me. I havn’t been at this as long as you have and I need
    all the help I can get. All I do for a living is drive trains for ConRail.
    Computers are a new hobby for me. Thanks again.
    –Bill

  • pucc_unknown

    43066 18JUL88-0418 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43052)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BILLWILSON

    Sounds like a pretty responsible job to me… I’d not make light of it!

    After all, when computers crash, usually the worst that happens
    is irritation. When TRAINS crash, however…

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43103 19JUL88-2016 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43066)
    From: BILLWILSON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    I have not had the misfortune of being in a crash, thank goodness! However,
    irritation is still a very large part of any railroader’s diet. I’m referring
    to constantly changing rules, incapable and sometimes suprisingly ignorant non-
    agreement personnel, (officials), ect. Probably the largest thing that is
    looming over us is the proposed random drug testing. Personally, I am not con-
    cerned about it, believe it or not, I am one of the few people that has never
    used or had any desire whatsoever to even try drugs. The thing that really bugs
    me is seeing people drive around lowered crossing gates and try and beat the
    train. I can’t even remember how many times I’ve seen this happen, only to look
    down in the back window of some lucky jerk only to see the wide-eyed looks on
    the faces of their kids as I miss them at fifty or sixty or whatever the speed
    limit is in the particular area. I mean if a person wants to play with his own
    life (whoops, wasn’t watching the screen)
    that’s fine, but don’t take somebody else with you. I, unfortunately, have been
    in that situation more than once, and it is not pleasant, believe me. I could
    ramble on forever, but I know you’ve better things to listen to. WOW, it seems
    every time I get going on this subject I get a little carried away. To each his
    own. Once again, thanks for all your help.
    —Bill

  • pucc_unknown

    43117 20JUL88-0316 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43103)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BILLWILSON

    I can well understand your feelings about fools who try to zip across railroad
    crossings,
    risking not only their own lives and those of their
    passengers, but the lives of folks on your train as well!!

    As for random drug testing, you may be aware that I vehemently
    oppose such measures when used as a SCREENING test.

    The reason for my opposition is both political AND technologic:

    (1) Current drug testing technology is utter unable in the
    OST recreational substances to distinguish between
    the recreational use of a substance days or weeks (or in some
    casese MONTHS ago) and someone being in a state of intoxication
    on the job. Thus, the testing is utterly WORTHLESS for its
    intended purpose… to detect intoxicated workers.

    (2) This worthless testing will undoubtedly be used primarly
    to harass and demean workers. Potentially, it can be used
    to allow management to arbitrarily fire workers they don’t like
    by faking test results.

    (3) The false positive rate is sufficiently high that thousands…
    probably TENS of thousands… of workers would be subject to the
    repulsive situation of being under a cloud of suspicion…
    in many cases workers like yourself who never even chose to
    use recreational drugs even on their own time! Note that although
    more sensitive tests and/or retests would supposedly “clear”
    such victims of these test errors, they would always be
    under suspicion by management ignorant of the problems
    involved in the testing, and probably subject to further
    harassment at least in the form of more frequent testing.

    The only sensible use for urine testing technology is
    as a means of confirming cases of suspected drug abuse
    where the suspicion has arisen due to observation of
    behavior. And in some cases for monitoring admitted
    and identified abusers during treatment programs
    and recovery. But NEVER for mass random screening.

    Such technologically inapproprite and police state
    invasion of privacy should be vigorously fought by
    all unions facing such testing.

    Folks want “quick fixes”. They prefer to ignore
    the real causes of drug abuse, and the real reasons
    why it continues in the workplace. Those REAL
    reasons include the fact that both workers and management
    are unwilling to deal with the problem… or even admit
    it exists. Mass screening is NOT a substitute for
    education of the population about the realities of
    drug use and abuse.

    The current load of lies and distortions from
    this puritanical “just say no” administration
    only fosters MORE drug abuse.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43137 20JUL88-2125 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43103)
    From: DENNYSKALA To: BILLWILSON

    We seem to have an amazing number of railroad crossing deaths here for a
    metropolitan area of our size. And I have a good idea why. A big reason
    why people run the crossing gates (here, anyway) is that, as often as
    not, the %&$# gates come down about a minute and a half before the train
    gets there! After several unnecessary ten minute waits for a long, slow
    freight to get by, one is *STRONGLY* tempted to go around the gate (after
    making sure the train won’t be there for a while). I would imagine that
    after doing this successfully a number of times, people get careless,
    with the inevitable result.

    I would think that it should be quite possible to make a practical sensor
    which calculates the time until the train will arrive – instead of
    relying on the distance, and assuming it will be going at the maximum
    speed. Once people realized that the gates were working as they should,
    and not unnecessarily delaying them, I think the crash rate would go
    down. Of course, nothing will stop the idiot who thinks he can beat the
    train at the last moment, but realistic timing on the gates would make
    the rest of us respect the crossing gates a little more.

    ***** Dennis *****

  • pucc_unknown

    43121 20JUL88-0402 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43117)
    From: BILLWILSON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Well Marty, your last message just about sums it up for about 99.9% of all
    railroad workers, including me. If there are any other railroad workers out
    there, you have probably just added them to your fan club. You want to hear
    something really out of it? Whenever an auto runs around lowered crossing gates,
    and gets hit, and there is a serious injury or fatality, who do you think is
    the first ones they want to haul off to the hospital for testing? I’ll give you
    a clue; it isn’t the idiot who went around the gates, even if there are w
    witnesses! We had a case similar to that up here about a year ago. One of our
    trains was traveling through a town and a part-time school janitor–volunteer
    fire department member received a suicide threat. In his hurry to get to the
    person (he knew him), this man drove straight into the side of the train. There
    were no bells or flashers, but there were crossbucks and a standard STOP!!!
    sign. The man was killed. The local law officer rather rashly ordered the entire
    crew off of the engine and made them walk at least a quarter of a mile in snow
    and ice to the patrol car to take them to be tested. About a week and a half
    later, the engineer, whose health wasn’t at peak, died of a heart attack. From
    subsequent rumors that went through our grapvine, the man who was killed in the
    first place, was tested (posthumosly) and found to be either under the
    influence, or had an unacceptable level of drugs, or as you mentioned, something
    that indicated drugs in his blood. Oh well, don’t you wish that all we had to
    worry about was how to get my new monitor running?? Maybe we should change the
    subject of this thread!!!! See ya later.
    —-Bill

  • pucc_unknown

    43128 20JUL88-1917 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43117)
    From: COCOXT To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Part of the motivation for random / screening testing is to identify “high risk”
    employees. This is the same type of discrimination an insurance company applies
    when it charges a higher rate to a single male under 25 for auto insurance than
    it does for a woman the same age. Yet this type of statistical discrimination
    is LEGAL. So is saying “I don’t care if Mr. Jones has AIDS, but my CUSTOMERS
    care, so I have to fire him”. Legal discrimination.

    Discrimination used to be a good word. “A man of discriminating tastes”. There
    are differences between people and between genders; this is undeniable. Seek
    not equality, but equivalence.

    Another place where we are applying statistics is in process control. Many
    manufacturing companies now use statistics to achieve “defect free”
    production. The current statistics kick is a boon for actuaries and other
    people who make a living by playing the odds — the odds of people, processes,
    and things. I don’t agree with random drug testing any more than I agree
    with having to pay a higher rate for insurance because I am in a “high risk”
    group (I’m not in the high risk group, relly — I’m married and over 25, but you
    see my point). But if we eliminate one, why not eliminate the other as weell?

  • pucc_unknown

    43150 20JUL88-2200 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43117)
    From: COCONAUT To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Marty,

    What about those who use drugs, and then operate trains and other forms of
    mass conveyance? I live about 35 miles from the infamous site of the
    Conrail/Amtrak disaster in Chase, Md. The operator of that train was
    (admittedly) intoxicated on marijuana at the time and had not only disabled
    the warning systems on the train, but ignored three stop signals before
    the collision. Something has to be done to control this sort of CRIMINAL
    behavior, not to mention those who endanger our lives on the highways!
    The operator of that train, by the way is now a proponent of drug testing!!!
    If drug testing had been in effect at the time, he would not have sixteen
    deaths on his conscience today. While I agree that drug testing is not
    always accurate on the first try, until something better comes along, it is
    certainly better than nothing.

    Doug Fisher

  • pucc_unknown

    43124 20JUL88-1825 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43121)
    From: ZACKS To: MARTYGOODMAN

    I basically agree with your position, Marty. If you watched Jesse
    Jackson give his stirring speach last night, you would have heard
    some thing he said which I totally agree with. He said that the
    White House’s “Just say no” program just isn’t enough. Drug abuse
    is a supply & demand business. Best to go after the supply as well
    as the demand.

  • pucc_unknown

    43143 20JUL88-2133 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43121)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BILLWILSON

    I think we pretty much covered the topic. I got your letter,
    and the buck, by the way. I’ll try to type up SOMETHING to send
    you regarding that Sony you have. Tho I believe I told you most
    of what is relevant to your system here in the forum.

    One thing… should you encounter ANOTHER Sony KV1311CR monitor,
    and want to modify it to work with that cable you now have, here’s
    how:

    Look for two chips… one 14 pin and one 16 pin… located
    very near the 8 pin TTL RGB connector on the accessory
    circuit board that supports all those connectors. You will
    find a source of regulated +5 volts on both Pin 14 of the 14 pin
    chip and Pin 16 of the 16 pin chip. Run a wire from either of those
    two pins to pins 1 and 2 on the 34 pin connector, and the cable
    you have with your current Sony KV1311CR monitor will work.

    By the way… HOW do you like the TV picture on that KV1311CR, eh?
    Purdy Durn Sharp, eh? heh heh.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43145 20JUL88-2141 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43124)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: ZACKS

    Well… I must say I do not agree with that statement by Jessie Jackson.

    The experience of prohibition shows most conclusively that
    illegalization and efforts at enforcement are not merely
    totally ineffective in combatting abuse of drugs… in many cases
    they make matters FAR worse.

    The most recent and proposed laws that alledge to “get tough on
    drug dealers” will not curb drug abuse at all… but they DO
    lay the groundword for serious erosion of civil liberties, and
    the eventual institution of more of a police state than we currently
    have.

    Making all intoxicants legal, and available in pharmaceutically
    pure form where appropriate, would at once eliminate half or more
    of the small scale robberies and assaults in urban centers.
    And would remove one of the most lucrative sources of revenue
    for organized crime. With needles and syringes freely available
    (sterile and disposeable) at low cost, the AIDS epidemic among
    IV drug abusers could be slowed… and that means less risk of
    catching AIDS for all… including the non IV drug abusing population.

    Consumer Reports a while back reviewed the record of enforcemnt
    type approaches to drug abuse, and conculed that such
    efforts were farces at best. And also HIDEOUSLY wasteful
    of public funds. Several major TV specials were done
    on this subject, with the same conculsion: Enforcement
    will never make a dent in the drug problem. Note the
    sources I am citing are NOT wide eyed radicals… they
    are “mainstream” providers of information.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43147 20JUL88-2149 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43128)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCOXT

    Well… your analogies are interesting, but have some problems:

    I never opposed the concept of identifying employees who
    have a substance abuse problem… that is a DESIREABLE thing
    to do. What I said was that urine testing is NOT an effective
    way to distinguish between those with substance abuse problems,
    OT have a substance
    abuse problem, and those who never ever use recreational drugs.
    OT succeed in doing that, and ends
    up at best “fingering” lots of innocent folks, and at worst
    getting abused by those who administer it.

    As for your examples of “legal discrimination”…
    I’m not sure that straw may you set up was done quite properly.
    I mean, I THINK the law protects the confidentiality of medical
    OT have to
    wear an “I Have Aids” sign in the work place, eh?

    The issue of urine testing is certainly a complex one,
    and the basis of my opinions on it are a COMBINATION of
    a straghtforward TECHNOLOGIC evaluation of the testing technology,
    a policical assessement, and an assessment of the technology
    in the context of this society, and a general philosophical
    assessment. In the case of this issue, as far as I am concerned, uring tesing
    is a BAD idea
    no matter HOW you look at it… urine testing for mass random
    screening, I mean.

    As I’ve said before, I have no proble with urine testing
    being used AFTER a drug abuse problem has been identified,
    or is specifically strongly suspected for some OTHER reason
    that can be clearly documented.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43148 20JUL88-2154 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43137)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: DENNYSKALA

    ACTUALLY… the “sensor mechanism” used by railroad crossing gates
    in my area is one that I admire greatly. It is a technologly that
    is more rugged than any other, and over a hundred years old:
    When there is sufficient conductance between the two rails, the
    gate comes down. When that conductance goes away, the gate goes up.

    NO censorable micoprocesors to blo out, or even transistors
    or other electronic components. Just totally rugged, reliable
    electromechanical stuff.

    I checked this out by hooking a set of 8 gauge copper
    jumper cables across the tracks at a crossing a 3AM one
    night in San Francisco. Sure enoung, the lights started flashing
    and the bells started ringing and the gates came down!

    That oughta be able to be used in SOME chase sequence movie
    some day, eh?

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43212 22JUL88-1347 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43137)
    From: BILLWILSON To: DENNYSKALA

    Hi Denny. I agree with you about the gates that come down two weeks before the
    train gets there. However, I have noticed that many of the crossings on the
    territory that I cover, as they are being renewed or upgraded, are being
    equipped with some sort of motion-detecting device(s) that not only allow the
    trains speed to be sensed, but will also tell whether the train is stopped or
    moving. So if my train is moving let’s say, at 30 mph, the gates will come down
    in a time span in accordance with that speed. If I am moving at 50 mph., the
    same applies, so the slower the train is moving, you still only have to wait
    the same (approx) time for the train to get to the crossing. If the train pulls
    right up to the crossing, the gates will time out and go up after a short
    period of time. These new systems really make it easier on us, because there
    are several places in my territory where certain operating procedures require
    us to do just that (pull up to a crossing and stop). It is not fun having a
    bunch of irate people honk, hollar, scream, and throw things at you. Of course,
    none of this sophisticated technology will help when you have the little jerks
    who have discovered that at most all you have to do to make the gates come down
    is lay a piece of metal or wire between the rails to complete a circuit. Then,
    unless the gates are on a special timer, they will stay down forever. Then you
    will always have the inevitable “equipment failure” which at times can’t be
    helped. Of course all this new equipment costs money!!!!!
    Bill

  • pucc_unknown

    43418 29JUL88-2124 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43137)
    From: MAXXUM To: DENNYSKALA

    AT RAILROAD CROSSINGS
    HERE’S HOW TO FIGGER…
    IN CASE OF A TIE
    THE ENGINE’S BIGGER!

    SORRY, COULDN’T RESIST.

    DAVE HAMMOND
    TOLEDO, OHIO

  • pucc_unknown

    43156 20JUL88-2250 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43148)
    From: ARTFLEXSER To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Seems to me that something based on VIBRATION of the tracks could be made
    pretty reliable too, and be better at having the gate stay down for an
    appropriate time. So that the gate wouldn’t stay down for a HALTED train near
    a crossing.
    Of course, in California, where you keep having those pesky earth tremors……

  • pucc_unknown

    43161 20JUL88-2358 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43148)
    From: DONHUTCHISON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee careful! I understand (but don’t know for SURE) that
    the voltage used in those railroad tracks is pretty high, at least, in
    modern railroad tracks!

  • pucc_unknown

    43227 22JUL88-2328 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43148)
    From: DENNYSKALA To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Foolproof is a definite requirement alright. But the old time system
    produces frustration and accidents. There’s got to be a better way which
    is cost-effective and fail-safe as well (easy for me to say, right?).

    ***** Dennis *****

  • pucc_unknown

    43247 23JUL88-0433 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43148)
    From: JIMREED To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Now, really, Marty,

    That is about the most juvenile thing . . .

    . . . I have heard in a long time. Just install a jumper between R1 and R2,
    eh.

    Hmmm, now where are my jumper cables?

    — Jim

  • pucc_unknown

    43157 20JUL88-2317 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43156)
    From: DONHUTCHISON To: ARTFLEXSER

    Vibration sensors (for that application) would be pretty durn
    unreliable, Art… and a maintenance nightmare.

    On another order of magnitude, remember the vibration detectors that were
    once used on auto alarms? If a CAT jumped on the car, the alarm went off!
    (Which, at 3 AM, reeeeelly endeared the car owner to his neighbors! Hehe!)

    Dh

  • pucc_unknown

    43166 21JUL88-0259 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43156)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: ARTFLEXSER

    Any vibration detector would fail due to the rumblings made
    by trucks causing false positives. At that point you are talking
    elaborate “intelligent” computer pattern recognition.
    And when you bring in a computer, you bring in
    unreliable operation, expense, and all sorts of trouble.

    NOPE… I think the way the DO do it is by FAR the best way.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43164 21JUL88-0249 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43150)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCONAUT

    Doug,

    I must strongly disagree with your statement that random urine
    testing is desireable, and that the implication that it alone
    could have prevented raiilroad and airplane accidents caused by
    intoxicated drivers.

    I have several reasons for saying this:

    (1) Cost vs Benefits:

    Even if it were the only or the most effective way of
    preventing such situtions, urine testing for mass random screens
    should be vigorously opposed on civil liberties grounds alone.
    The harm it would do to hundreds of thousands of hard working
    innocent people vastly outweighs the few hundred deaths that it
    proponents alledge it could avoid. Recommending it is a nutty as
    saying we should allow the police to search our person and house
    at will (without probable cause), because that will better allow
    them to catch criminals.

    (2) Scientific Facts:

    You and others are probably enamoured of urine testing
    because you share the mistaken belief that such tests can
    distinguish between one who is intoxicated and one who is not,
    more or less like the alcohol testing that is legal and routinely
    done in most states if the police suspect drunken driving.
    Urine testing for intoxicants other than alcohol is in most cases
    utterly incapable of distinguishing between a state of sobriety
    and a state of intoxication. The marijuana urine test, for
    example, will be positive if you were in a room where it was
    smoked in the last several weeks. Would you have a total non user
    of marijuana accused of killing people due to on the job
    intoxication on the basis of such a test? Even tho follow up
    tests (at GREAT expense) can quantitate levels of the drug
    somewhat better, it they still cannot determine whether or not one
    was intoxicated at the time.
    You see, alcohol is uniquely amenable to the testing
    technology, because it is so quickly eliminated from the system.
    This is not true of many other commonly used intoxicants. Note,
    too, that the current use of alcohol testing of automobile
    drivers (which I heartily APPROVE of, by the way) is only in
    situations where there already is reasonable suspicion (based on
    the smell, appearance, walk, speech, and other behavior of the
    suspect, as detected by police with training in looking at such
    indicators) that a person is intoxicated.

    (3) There are effective alternatives

    I do NOT adovcate just throwing up one’s hands and giving up
    on fighting intoxication in the work place. Quite the contrary.
    An effective campaign against such dangerous and irresponsible
    actions should consist of educating folks to recognize the
    physical behavioral signs of intoxication, and reporting them to
    organs within a company trained to dealing with such problems.
    Presently, in most cases, intoxication in the work place is
    ignored, or actively hidden. ONLY when this behavior (which
    constitues tacit approveal of the behavior by the society) is
    altered can such practices be effectively combatted. There is NO
    “quick technologic fix” that can substitute for this. ONCE there
    is reasonable suspiction of intoxication, blood and urine testing
    technology can be effectively used to to support or reject that
    impression.
    Why is it such testing so good when there is suspicion if it
    is so rotten where there is no suspicion? Well, first of all,
    where there is probable cause, there is a massively smaller chance
    of the test being abused by those who do it to fire workers not
    liked by management. And of innocent, responsible recreational
    users and non users having to deal with the emotional trauma and
    stigma of a false positive test. As important, since far, far,
    fewer tests will be ordered in such cases than for mass
    screening, more effective (more quantative and more accurate, less
    vulnerable to false results) technologies can be employed, because
    the greater expense of such technology would not be as much of a
    problem hen the nuber of tests is so much smaller.
    Urine and blood testing is also quite useful during treatment
    for and recovery from drug abuse, and I support its use in that
    context, too.

    (5) The Larger Picture:

    I’ve said there are no technologic “quick fixes” to deeply
    rooted social ills. This is true of the idiotic notion that
    “star wars” (SDI) technology can make the world safe from the
    threat of nuclear war (the truth is quite exactly the reverse, for
    while utterly ineffective in preventing nuclear attack, some of
    the technologies being developed are directed at first nuclear
    strikes against the Soviet Union, thereby making nuclear war MORE
    likely). This society is a very sick one, with obscenely neurotic
    attitudes toward both sex and recreational use of intoxicants.
    Note how utterly the current administration ignores the experience
    of the (alcohol) prohibition years with its insane “Just Say No”
    campaigne and emphasis on enforcement of laws against “illegal”
    drugs. Quite predictably, the result has been both an increase in
    use of illegal drugs and a massive increase in revenues of
    organized crime. This insane attitude has also been responsible
    for thousands of deaths due to AIDS among the IV drug abusing
    population, which in turn has unquestionably resulted in other
    deaths from AIDS even among “straight” non drug users. Quality,
    accurate education of youth and adults is needed about both the
    real dangers and the real pleasures of intoxicant use. This
    cannot happen, tho, in a climate of self righteous, puritanical,
    anti-pleasure hysteria.

    Yes… if everyone were put under 24 hour surveilance by
    television cameras in their houses and in public places, with
    transponders on them monitored 24 hours a day, it would make
    tracking criminals easier. But that does NOT make that a sane
    thing to do!

    (Conclusion) For those who do not wish to live in a police state,
    there is no alternative to vigorously opposing the use of urine
    testing as a means of mass random screening.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43167 21JUL88-0301 General Information
    Railroads (Re: Msg 43161)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: DONHUTCHISON

    Naw… there’s no voltage on the tracks that cross the roads…
    it would be too hazardous to the public if there was, I suspect.
    I mean.. if some one crossing the street on a warm day (who had
    lots of skin exposed) fell and contacted both tracks (as really
    could happen) they’d get fried. I seriously doubt there is
    any danger there. In any case, I DID use well insulated handles
    on the jumper cable clips!

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43213 22JUL88-1359 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43161)
    From: BILLWILSON To: DONHUTCHISON

    Hi Don. The voltage that you are wondering about in Marty’s little jumper cable
    episode is not at all that great. I’m no expert on the matter, but I can tell
    at is used. Of course I’m talking about in
    my area where we use diesel-electric locomotives instead of overhead cantenary
    systems. Where I live I could go up and touch both rails with no harm whatsoever
    to myself. I have been told this by the signal maintainers that I know and work
    with here. Maybe that might answer a question or two.
    Bill

  • pucc_unknown

    43170 21JUL88-0319 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43157)
    From: ARTFLEXSER To: DONHUTCHISON

    You are probably right, inasmuch as the thing would need to be designed rather
    carefully in order to tell the difference between a faraway train with lots of
    cars and a nearer one with only a few cars. But I doubt that the cat situation
    is comparable, in
    that a train
    ought to vibrate the track in a sustained manner that would pretty uniquely
    indicate that something was ON the track rather than crossing it.

  • pucc_unknown

    43171 21JUL88-1117 General Information
    Railroads (Re: Msg 43167)
    From: DONHUTCHISON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    As you might suspect, there are two types of power distribution systems for
    railroad motive power:

    (1) AC, using an overhead contact wire, where the nominal voltage level is
    11,000 volts, 25 Hz, single-phase. Commercial-frequency high voltage AC
    (25,000 volts, 60 Hz) seems to be destined for greater use in main-line
    applications. (Voltage levels in Europe and Japan have operated for years
    between 6,600 and 25,000 volts at 50 Hz.)

    The three-phase system using TWO overhead contact wires has disappeared
    entirely, although some work has been done in applying 3-phase, 3-conductor
    third-rail power for rapid-transit application.

    (2) DC, using an overhead contact wire or a third rail, where the voltage
    level may be 600, 1200, 1500, 2400, or 3000 volts. As much as 750 volts DC
    may be satisfactorily carried in a third rail, but higher voltages are usually
    carried in overhead trolley wires. (Like… in San Francisco.)

    Modern rapid-transit systems, by the way, are nearly always operated with the
    third rail at 600 volts.

    In any case, the running rails are used for the power return. Rail joints are
    loosely installed to permit temperature expansion and contraction, and the
    joints are bonded to provide conductivity for large currents. Natch, there
    shouldn’t be any voltage across the rails since they are supposedly at ground
    potential . . . but there CAN be.

    On American railroads, the distance from the running tracks to the third rail
    is usually between 20 and 28 inches, while the third rail may rise 7-8 inches
    above the level of the tracks themselves. While the third rail is protected
    pretty well, especially in the case of rapid-transit systems using fences,
    it’s not impossible to get the charge of your life from a railroad.

    Those are some of the reasons why I say it’s best not to tempt fate with the
    battery cables. Auto battery cables, after all, need only be constructed to
    provide 12 volts worth of insulation resistance. The extra bulk is for
    ABRASION resistance.

    I’ll bet you were about 12 yers old when you pulled this stunt,
    right? (Hahaha!)

    Don

  • pucc_unknown

    43172 21JUL88-1118 General Information
    Railroads (Re: Msg 43170)
    From: DONHUTCHISON To: ARTFLEXSER

    Oh, I just mentioned the cat example because a friend once designed a
    “burglar-proof” system for his Corvette using a mercury switch, which was
    supposed to sound the alarm in case the car was being bounced around. He
    reasoned that such vibration might indicate someone trying to force his way
    into the car through a window, or maybe an attempt to get the car on a dolly.

    Imagine his surprise when his own cat set off the alarm at 3 AM!

    The cat was not amused, and left a small, brown remembrance on the car’s hood
    to commemorate the occasion.

  • pucc_unknown

    43176 21JUL88-1605 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43171)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: DONHUTCHISON

    Er… well.. actually… I tried that out a few WEEKS ago!

    The tracks I did it on were ones that crossed a San Franisco street
    right in the middle of the city. There was no visible third ral
    nor was there any overhead wire. I assume that the train was powered
    by some combustion type locomotive (Diesel?). Or do they still
    use such things these days???

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43186 21JUL88-1828 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43171)
    From: HARBIE To: DONHUTCHISON

    at 600v , i’d say it’d be the charge of your DEATH !

  • pucc_unknown

    43178 21JUL88-1730 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43147)
    From: COCOXT To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Good points. I was trying to point out that a lot of unfair practices
    are commonly accepted, and the examples were not the best. I have heard
    of cases where the (er — a case) “xxx doesn’t bother me, but it bothers
    my customers” argument has been used successfully to fire someone or
    refuse to hire them; by analogy, “I don’t mind if Mr. Jones uses drugs,
    but my customers mind” should also be legal justification for hiring or
    not hiring someone. I f a man is Black, it’s no sin — but those who
    would be prejudiced against him know right away that he is Black. A
    society prejudiced against drugs does not have this “luxury”; they
    must use the guerilla tactics that you oppose so vehemently.

    Like Jesse said — drugs are also a supply problem. Too bad we can’t
    test MONEY for its connection to drugs.

  • pucc_unknown

    43199 21JUL88-2246 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43178)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCOXT

    well… overall… I think there is FAR too much focus on enforcement…
    with resulting immense waste of public resources and utter failure
    in combatting drug abuse. Only with education… and understanding
    about the real distinction between drug USE and drug ABUSE… is there
    any chance of lessing the amount of drug abuse in this country.

    Nancy Reagan is the best friend an unscrupulous syndicate drug
    dealer EVER had. So long as her ravings are given the least little
    bit of credance, there is NO chance of effectively attacking the problem.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43206 22JUL88-0230 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43172)
    From: ARTFLEXSER To: DONHUTCHISON

    I have myself set off such alarms in other people’s cars on at least two
    occasions, by nudging them when parallel parking in a tight space. Once, I set
    one off
    just by slamming my car door when parked close NEXT to the other car! No
    wonder passersby ignore car alarms
    these days, and burglars aren’t very afraid of them!

  • pucc_unknown

    43210 22JUL88-0256 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43206)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: ARTFLEXSER

    You have put your finger on the main failing in most home burglar
    alarms too.

    I knew of someone who was a professonal burglar at one time
    in his life. He just LOVED burglar alarms. He’d trip them
    every night (and disappear) after he had spotted a likely
    target house, and eventually the owner would decide the system was
    faulty and shut it down. When the alarm failed to trip, finally,
    he’d strike. This process has the added advantage of
    conditionning the neighbors that the alarm in question was
    faulty and to be ignored.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43211 22JUL88-0305 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43210)
    From: ARTFLEXSER To: MARTYGOODMAN

    I would have imagined that it would be rather difficult to trip a HOUSE burglar
    alarm without actually entering the premises or at least leaving some signs of
    attempted entry.
    Guess it depends on the type of alarm!

  • pucc_unknown

    43226 22JUL88-2327 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43210)
    From: DENNYSKALA To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Now *THERE’S* your movie idea, but its already been done. Topkapi -
    Michael Caine I believe, about 20 years ago or so. They did about what
    you described. They hid inside a museum after closing, and repeatedly
    set off an elaborate alarm system until the guards turned it off in
    disgust. Was a very amusing sequence.

    ***** Dennis *****

  • pucc_unknown

    43214 22JUL88-1848 General Information
    Railroads (Re: Msg 43213)
    From: DONHUTCHISON To: BILLWILSON

    Oh, yeah… agreed! The normal two running rails are at ground potential
    and don’t pose a threat under normal conditions.

    But, where third rail systems are used, there is a significant voltage on
    the “third rail.” That’s the point I was trying to get across.

    Dh

  • pucc_unknown

    43215 22JUL88-1849 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43176)
    From: DONHUTCHISON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Yeah, I’d say you found the tracks for an OLD combustion type railroad, where
    the tracks are used simply for direction rather than for providing power to
    the engine.

    Dh

  • pucc_unknown

    43225 22JUL88-2327 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43145)
    From: DENNYSKALA To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Marty, I think the bottom line here is – people will simply not obey laws
    that they perceive as unfair, biased, unnecessary, or arbitrary (unless
    of course the penalty is extreme or they are monitored very closely).
    Like prohibition, 55 mph speed limit, seat belt buzzers, sodomy laws,
    etc. Likewise with drug laws. An addition absurdity here in making an
    addiction illegal. Like making breathing illegal for the rest of us.

    ***** Dennis *****

  • pucc_unknown

    43228 22JUL88-2328 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43212)
    From: DENNYSKALA To: BILLWILSON

    Glad to hear about the new sensors. Would make me even happier to hear
    that they were being installed on all the crossings here. Our problem is
    that to travel North to South, in one section of town the underpasses are
    about 5 miles apart. So avoiding the crossings is difficult. And yep,
    nothing makes for really p***ed off motorists like a nice long freight
    slowing down to a stop across the crossing.

    ***** Dennis *****

  • pucc_unknown

    43231 23JUL88-0246 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43212)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BILLWILSON

    Cute comment about the “little jerks” who falsely trip
    the gates. Sheesh! I sorta had FUN doing that a few
    weeks ago… tho it was at 4:00 AM in a place where
    there were absolutely NO cars or trains at the time.
    I just wanted to test that that actually worked.. the
    ole “jumper cable trick”.

    heee.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43230 23JUL88-0244 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43211)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: ARTFLEXSER

    As you say, it depends on the alarm.

    Here are several ways to trip an alarm:

    Throw a rock at (if need be thru) a window. If the alarm
    system is equipped with sound descriminators, it will
    trip the alarm.

    Remove a screw or three from the alarm bell, and begin to open
    the casing of it. Most such alarm bells have a “tamper switch”
    on their case, which will trip the main alarm if you
    mess with the case’s hold down screws. This can be a bit
    tricky, for properly placed bells are located
    high enough so that a ladder is required to reach them.

    As far as breaking in to the house is concerned,
    often merely opening the door will trip the alarm.
    If the door does NOT have a simple slide bolt
    (or wedge “police lock”) on it, any decent lock
    pick can get in in a minute or two. Good lock
    picks can go thru 99.9% of house and commercial
    doors in 15 seconds or less. I know! I’ve seen
    a master at work on some of the best name brand
    six and seven tumbler locks!

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43708 5AUG88-2229 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43211)
    From: COCONAUT To: ARTFLEXSER

    Quite true! A good home alarm (not one of these new electronic gizmos) is very
    difficult to trip without doing some sort of visible damage. My folks have a
    system that is strictly hard-wired, relay controlled, and uses only pushbutton
    switches on doors and windows (including interior doors which can be switched
    in or out of the system with toggles on a hidden control panel. It never
    falses-out and the only way to set it off is to open a locked door or window.
    Marty’s cat-burglar friend would have had a fit with that one!

    DougFisher

  • pucc_unknown

    43232 23JUL88-0248 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43214)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: DONHUTCHISON

    No argument there, Don… that third rail is a REEEEEEL Sizzler!

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43238 23JUL88-0331 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43225)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: DENNYSKALA

    I agree that unenforceable laws are (most of the time) bad laws,
    both because MOST such laws are idiotic in the first place
    (anti drug use laws, anti this or that consenting sex act laws, etc.)
    and because they breed disrespect for other, needed laws.

    There are cases where hard to enforce laws still make some sense.
    Anti-jaywalking laws, for example. My parents jay walked
    regularly (which is dangerous at times, you must admit)
    until they got a ticket for it. After that they obeyed the law,
    and probably were safer for it. Of course, they are fundamentally
    law abiding, and even the impact of a simple “ticket” was sufficient
    to deter them.

    But, to my knowledge, “addiction” itself is not illegal anywhere…
    it is the sale, purchase, or posession of the illegal drugs
    that is illegal.

    I should here once again emphasize that there is a major distinction
    between drug USE and drug ABUSE. With many drugs (such as marijuana
    and alcohol) the vast majority of folks who ever use them never
    abuse them. The problems there are that tho only 10% of those who
    try alcohol abuse it, that 10% is still 20 million addicts to
    a hideously toxic drug.

    Cocaine (in its purified preparations, especially crack)
    seems intrinsically more addictive… with a large fraction
    of users getting into an unhealthy relationship with the drug.
    But even there, there are folk who can use it without getting
    addicted. But the risk of addiction is FAR higher. I, for one,
    have no desire to even try crack, in part for that reason. But
    that is my choice.

    Narcotics fall somwhere inbetween… and differ, too, in that
    once addicted, if the drug is available in inexpensive
    and pure form, many narcotics addicts can regulate their
    addiction to a given level and continue for decades as
    quality and successful doctors, lawyers, etc. Such
    regulation and “plateauing” of the addiction level
    is more rare and more difficult (by orders of magnitude!)
    in the case of crack.

    Thus I guess one can very crudely divide drug use into
    four categories:

    (1) NON users… those who abstain. One perfectly sane
    alternative when faced with the question of what drugs to try.

    (2) Recreational users… those who use one or more
    mind altering substances in an infrequent and rational
    manner… in most cases this means once a week or less,
    and of course NEVER while on the job or operating
    a motor vehicle or the equivalent, and USUALLY also
    implies the drug used socially… certainly NOT
    as a treatment for stress or depression.

    (3) addicts whose addiction is under control.
    This situation occurse with narcotics and some marijuana
    addicts. It is not a manner of drug use that I would
    approve of, but the “victim” who has stabilized their
    drug addiction is often unlikely to seek treatment.
    And, in some cases, may not really NEED treatment.

    (4) addicts whose addiction is out of control.
    This happens with most nicotine users, and is
    often the fate of alcoholics. It seems to be
    common among cocaine users, too. It is rare among
    marijuana users.

    I’d consider category 1 and 2 to be healthy, sane,
    “Normal” behavior. Frankly, I PREFER to be a category 2
    person, and studies may indicate that category 2 folks
    in many populations are happier, better adjusted, than
    (on the average) category one persons.

    Those in category 3 and 4 are in trouble, in my opinion.
    The distinction between 3 and 4 is that those in 3 may
    stay that way for life, and remain relatively happy and
    productive to society as well.. whereas those in category
    4 are going down the tubes, making themselves and those
    close to them miserable, and costing society immense
    amounts of resoruces for their medical care and
    the mistakes they make.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43239 23JUL88-0332 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43226)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: DENNYSKALA

    Sadly, that apparantly is a frequently employed technique in
    “real life”.

    It works, too.

    Just like in that movie!

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43240 23JUL88-0334 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43230)
    From: ARTFLEXSER To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Perhaps we should archive that message in a new “Tips for Burglars” database?

  • pucc_unknown

    43241 23JUL88-0337 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43227)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: DENNYSKALA

    Bill Wilson’s description of that system that senses the train’s
    speed and reacts accordingly in terms of timing when the gate
    goes down sounded desireable.

    The obvious problem is that such systems have to function
    out in the open air, exposed to the elements to one or
    another extent. Certainly to temperature, and parts of them
    to moisture and oxidation as well… not to mention
    lightening and such. So engineering such a “smart”
    set up that is not constantly breaking down is no
    mean feat. Oh… I suspect it can be done…
    at least, something that could be relied on for X no.
    of years, and then replaced on a ROUTINE maintanance schedule.
    But again.. stuff exposed in that fashion is VERY non trivial
    to engineer for reilable long life!!!

    Obviously those parts of the system that CAN be sealed up
    in more or less environment proof ways would be…
    dunked in epoxy, lightening protected, opto coupled, …
    whatever. But still the SENSORS would HAVE to some exent
    be exposed to air, or sun, or whatever. And THEY might
    prove to be the achilles heel of the set up.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43243 23JUL88-0341 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43238)
    From: ARTFLEXSER To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Not to mention (speaking of burglary) the cost to society of all the burglaries
    and other assorted
    crimes that get committed by the “out of control” segment of drug
    users.

  • pucc_unknown

    43245 23JUL88-0343 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43241)
    From: ARTFLEXSER To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Dunked in epoxy?? Whatever might have given rise to that thought?

  • pucc_unknown

    43246 23JUL88-0345 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43245)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: ARTFLEXSER

    Actually…

    Electronic stuff has been potted in epoxy for ages, for
    quite “legitimate” reasons of environment prooffing.

    But yes… there WAS another reason why epoxy-coated
    electronics was on my mind. Heeeeee!

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43255 23JUL88-1911 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43240)
    From: BILLWILSON To: ARTFLEXSER

    WOW!!! I didn’t mean to start all of this! All I was doing was getting a little
    fuzz off my chest. HaHa.
    Bill

  • pucc_unknown

    43257 23JUL88-1919 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43232)
    From: BILLWILSON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Just a little sound advice to whoever you would like to hear groan.
    “Never make love on the railroad track–cause the train might c*me first!”
    Bill

  • pucc_unknown

    43268 24JUL88-0052 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43255)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: BILLWILSON

    Ah! But THAT is the very nature… the very ESSENCE…
    of public bulletin boards… this elaboraton and extention of,
    and wandering from, existing “threads”. It’s a pleasure to
    have ya here, for (among other things) precisely the reason
    that your comments interest other folks, and spark other
    discussion.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43707 5AUG88-2207 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43164)
    From: COCONAUT To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Marty-

    First of all, I apologize for the delay in this reply, by my Coco got zapped
    while writing the message you are replying to. I certainly do not recall
    saying that I was “enamored” of random urine testing. What I said was
    basically that until people in positions potentially hazardous to many others
    are able to show some responsibility, something MUST be done. This is not to
    say that all such persons are irresponsible, but obviously enough are to create
    a problem. Untill someone can come up with a perfect solution, anything is
    better than doing nothing at all. Today, two blocks from my office, a mother
    and her 14 year old son were murdered by the driver of a dump truck, who due
    to excessive speed and negligent, erratic driving was unable to stop for a
    signal and literally ran over their car. People at the scene could hear the
    mother’s screams for help as she burned to death in the resulting fire. The
    driver of the truck was councilled by a psychologist at the scene to keep
    him from possible psychological harm and released! ABSURD!!!!!!!

    Doug Fisher

  • pucc_unknown

    43720 6AUG88-0331 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43707)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCONAUT

    I fear you are responding emotionally, not logically, to
    a very real terrible tradgedy. Actually, in your description
    of that awful accident, there was NOTHING you said that in any
    way demonstrated that the dump truck driver was intoxicated
    on any substance. He could merely have been incompetent.
    Or totally distracted by, say, a fight with his wife when he
    left for work, or overdue bills, or whatever. This is not
    meant to excuse his behavior, just to note that it is not clear
    that drugs were in any way related to it.

    Further, I take STRONG… VERY VERY VERY STRONG… issue
    with that I see as an hysterical and emotional statement
    that “doing anything is better than doing nothing”. THAT
    makes NO sense wha
    t ever to me! There often are situations
    where doing ANYTHING is a terrible mistake, and doing NOTHING
    is the wiseest course. Example: Forest Fires. Folks
    often made the MISTAKE of fighting forest fires, before they
    learned that in many cases 90% of the fires in a given region
    were “natural”, set by lightening, and served to burn small
    areas and PREVENT the occurance of MASSIVELY destructive fires
    that would occur if the smaller fires were prematurely put out
    by stupid, medling, do-gooding humans.

    In the case of drug abuse, I never advocated “doing nothing”.
    I have in message after message proposed DOING a lot of things
    to counter drug abuse: Legalize all intoxicant, teach those
    who insist on using drugs HOW to use them safely, make
    pharmaceutically pure and comtaminate free drugs available in
    consistent doses, provide free medical care for all, including
    treatment for drug abuse, make decent housing and education
    available to all, to help eliminate the hopeless rural
    and urban poor for whome drugs make sense as the only
    “way out” to temporary happiness. Establish sensible
    on the job programs to detect and treat drug abuse, as opposed
    to fasistic police state tactics that are technologically
    and philosophically inappropriate to the task. And much more.

    Your comment seemed to me about the same as advocating
    putting land mines in no parking zones, because that tactic
    would effectively eliminate recidivism among parking offenders.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43721 6AUG88-0335 General Information
    RE: Railroads (Re: Msg 43708)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCONAUT

    I heartily endorse your folks’ idea of a good burglar alarm.
    VERY heartily. I agree fully that a simple, non electronic
    (electro mechanical) based alarm is often FAR superior to
    an overly complicated (and overly sensitive to false triggering)
    electronic jobbie. Actually, I currently HAVE a commercial
    electronic alarm in my house, but it is one of the simplest
    variety of such systems, and to date (4 months) there have been
    no false alarms. Oh… it’s caught ME from time to time
    when my girlfriend leaves the house early and absentmindedly
    sets the alarm, resulting in my hitting one of the pressure
    pads when I wake up and start moving about… but no
    real FALSE alarms.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43748 6AUG88-1932 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43720)
    From: COCONAUT To: MARTYGOODMAN

    MARTY:

    Perhaps I am not making myself clear, as you seem to misunderstand what I say.

    In respect to the dump truck driver in question, my feelings were not that he
    was necessarily intoxicated, but that no effort was made to determine what his
    condition was at the time. Visual appearances are every bit as faulty (if
    not more so) as the testing that you despise. I used to know a guy that could
    smoke marijuana all day and hide it quite well even though he was quite high.

    Secondly, and I REPEAT that I certainly do not feel that drug testing is
    effective or adequate, but there is a certain portion of the population that
    will be intoxicated on whatever is available to them no matter how much money
    and “happiness” is thrown at the problem. Granted, making drugs legal, and
    offerring the proper counciling will help in some cases, but it seems to me
    that more people will be willing to try drugs that have been legalized because
    Uncle Sam has put his “Stamp of Approval” on them. Case in point – Nutrasweet.

    Nutrasweet is a substance that is definately harmful to some, possibly harmful
    to all and practically nobody worries about it because the FDA has allowed its
    sale. I realize that this is a simplistic comparison, but I’m sure that you
    can see my point.

    DougFisher

  • pucc_unknown

    43777 6AUG88-2334 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43748)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: COCONAUT

    Actually… I don’t know of any significant harm done by Aspartane
    (Nutrasweet). It would seem to be likely to be utterly harmless,
    so similar is it to natural amino acids that float around in ya
    all the time, anyway.

    Legalization of intoxicants is not, in my opinion, “approveal”
    of the use of them… nor is it “disapproveal”. It would
    merely be a recognition of what I see as the FACT
    that individuals have a RIGHT to CHOOSE to alter their consciousness
    using drugs… provided they do it in a responsible manner,
    on their own time. Note that I APPROVE of laws making it
    a crime to drive while intoxicated, etc. That is, I approve
    of laws against the inapproprate and reckless use of intoxicants
    in a fashion that endangers not only onself, but others,
    in a very direct way.

    In the case of the dump truck driver… or of ANY public “driver”
    (dump truck, plane, train, taxi cab, etc.) who gets into an accident…
    it is a tricky question as to wheter drug testing should
    be mandatory. My best answer to that question at this time would
    be that such testing MIGHT be in order, but ONLY if the test in question
    really DOES offer a chance of determining whether the individual was
    actually INTOXICATED at the time the accident happenned.

    I mean… a marijuana urine test would be TOTALLY inappropriate,
    for it is not quantative, and would be positive for ANYONE who
    had a puff of grass in the last several weeks, or who even was in
    a ROOM where the stuff was being used. Surely you agree that THAT
    kind of test does not detect whether or not our unhappy driver
    was “under the influence” at the time of the accident??!

    As I noted in a previous essay on this subject, it is very difficult
    to use blood and urine testing to determine intoxication.
    Curiously, alcohol is probably THE most amenable to that
    sort of approach. With other drugs, the correlation between
    the levels found and the presence or absence of intoxication
    is much worse.

    In any case, I certainly see it as appropriate to give that
    driver on the spot a neurologic exam (walk a line, touch your nose,
    etc.) to check for HARD evidence of impaired FUNCTION… and
    follow that with appropriate tests for intoxicants if the neurologic
    exam shows any real deficits.

    By the way… *I* was in that situation myself, once.
    I was falling asleep at the wheel, having been up about 20 hours
    and returning from a major mountaineering climb in Baja.
    Driving down California Interstate Highway 8, I began to “weave”
    across FOUR lanes… back and forth. The highway patrol
    stopped me, and administered what I judged to be a VERY appropriate
    neurologic test for alcohol and other intoxication. They quickly
    ascertained my story (too tired to drive… too tired
    to exercise proper JUDGEMENT to get off the road!) was a true one,
    gave me a stern warning, a $100 ticket, and left. But, on the
    basis of their test, and their smell of my breath, they did NOT
    waste my time, or the people’s money, on a breath or blood
    alcohol test. I was lucky back then (15 years ago) that
    the freeway was essentiall EMPTY at 3:30 AM!

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43806 7AUG88-1341 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43777)
    From: DONHUTCHISON To: MARTYGOODMAN

    Maybe I watch Perry Mason and/or Matlock too much, but I think I heard once
    that eating several soda crackers would cause the BreathAlyzer test to show a
    driver as being totally snockered, when he might not have had even a single
    drink…?

    I guess that’s one reason the lawyers advise their clients to INSIST on a
    BLOOD alcohol test if they are pulled over on suspicion of driving under
    the influence… because a false conviction based on a BreathAlyzer test
    is extremely difficult to have overturned.

    Don

  • pucc_unknown

    43813 7AUG88-1505 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43806)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: DONHUTCHISON

    I don’t know one way or another about that “soda cracker false positive”
    problem, but certainly agree with you that the blood test for
    alcohol is likely to be more accurate.

    —marty

  • pucc_unknown

    43827 7AUG88-1657 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43806)
    From: ZACKS To: DONHUTCHISON

    I really don’t know for sure, but I have heard that if the
    authorities are not equipped to perform a blood alcohol test,
    that you may request a 30 minutes waiting period before actually
    taking the test. This is due to the fact that if you had had only
    one mixed drink just minutes before driving and being stopped,
    the breathalyzer will give a false reading of true blood alcohol
    level. Once the alcohol has had enough tine to be totally absorbed
    by your system a more true result will occur. I think they came up
    with 30 minutes to give any persons body the chance to absorb every
    thing so far consumed.

  • pucc_unknown

    43861 8AUG88-0126 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43806)
    From: COCONAUT To: DONHUTCHISON

    Don,
    Smoking ordinary tobacco cigarettes can also give a false positive on a
    breathalyzer!

    DougFisher

  • pucc_unknown

    43829 7AUG88-1729 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43827)
    From: DONHUTCHISON To: ZACKS

    Of course, one school of thought says you should ALWAYS request a BLOOD
    alcohol test… because you will probably need professional medical
    services for such a test, which gives your body time to metabolize the
    alcohol to a “safe” level. Better not to drive under ANY influence,
    though… that’s what taxis are for. (I guess one could always argue
    who is the better driver, though… a drunk or a cabbie! Hahaha!)

    Don

  • pucc_unknown

    43835 7AUG88-2040 General Information
    RE: Sony KV-1311CR (Re: Msg 43829)
    From: MARTYGOODMAN To: DONHUTCHISON

    The Cabbie who picked me up late one night in Seatle was not
    intoxicated. Still… I did feel rather uncomforatble
    riding with him, for he had a battery operated 5 in B&W TV mounted
    on the dash, which appeared to absorb nearly his full attention
    as he drove me to the airport. Sheesh!

    —marty