02/11/98: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games? by pucc_unknown, | Category: Princeton | 17 comments - (Comments are closed)

The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:47:47 GMT
Reply-To: Nickolas Marentes
Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
From: Nickolas Marentes
Organization: University of Queensland
Subject: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

I read this on the listserver lost the senders name and felt I had to
reply to some of the comments which made me feel quite negative about the
future of the CoCo. While the comments made are quite true to an extent,
I feel that the comments reflect an attitude of one who really has given up
hope in the CoCo. I can only hope that those who share these thoughts are
few.

: etc. that I have download from the web. Even still, while $20 might be a
: bargin for a newer game for today’s PC’s or MAC, I certainly don’t
consider
: it a bargin for 1 Classic Arcade Game Remake just because I can play it
on
: the CoCo. Since most of us have PC’s or other newer platforms in addition
to
: our CoCo yes I know there are a few die hards left, but they are the
: exception I have other choices for running the remakes. Take Williams
: Arcade Classics for the PC for example. Jeff Vavasour author of the CoCo
: emulator wrote the emulator engine and they included 6 games for $29.95
if
: I remember correctly. As money conscious as most CoCo users, heck most
: people are today, there is no way I could be convinced that anyone would
: seriously find the $20 for a single remake a bargin. Sure some have and
will
: buy out of loyalty to the CoCo authors, but that doesn’t make it a
bargin.
: Compare $120 for 6 of your games to the Williams arcade classic’s pakage.
: Not to mention that fact you are treading on thin ice legally, using the
: same name and what looks to be a perfect likeness of the original. You
also
: have competion with the Arcade Machine emulators that popping up all over
: the place where someone can play the real thing on their PC.

So you are saying that I should sell Pac-man for $5 $29.95 divided by 6
games? If my calculations are correct, that would mean that of the 14
copies sold so far I would have made $70 less my expenses which will
probably bring it more in line to around $60. Have I spent the last 6
months
of my spare time for a measly $60!! I can stand on a corner holding a tin
can
for ONE day and get more than that! What you are missing is the fact that
there are millions more PC users out there than CoCo users. They will
easily sell more than 14 copies. If the CoCo had more buying customers,
then I too could afford to sell Pac-man at a lower price! Yes I know that
there are MAME emulators than run the original Pac-man. But if you take
that sort of thinking, why run ANYTHING at all on the CoCo. The PC has
more games, more wordprocessor, more spreadsheets, multi-tasking OS’s,
more of everything! Why should we even bother with the CoCo when we have
the PC!? Are you saying we should forget the CoCo? Doesn’t it interest you
to see software created for the CoCo that shows what the CoCo is capable
of?
I have a PC at home that runs DOOM and all those PC games but what I find
much more impressive is seeing what can be done on a 2Mhz CoCo3, not on a
200MHz PC! How fast does a machine have to be to run MAME Pac-man? Don’t
try it on anything less than a Pentium 100! What about some of the other
shareware versions on the PC? Try a minimum of 486 at 25MHz with at least
4Mb RAM. I get great enjoyment when I see well written software released
for our CoCo. It makes me proud to support these programmers.

: 2 Create new original games in the classic style of the old CoCo
favorites
: i.e. Sands of Egypt, Zaxxon, Grabber, etc..

Original!? Sands of Egypt was a license which originated on another machine
Apple I think. As for Zaxxon, it’s a Sega arcade game licenced by
Datasoft,
converted to practically all the computers at the time including the CoCo.

: 3 Find out how the successful PC shareware companies have marketed their
: software and duplicate where possible.

First you have to have a market that is willing to buy. No point in
continueing if you don’t have this first! I thought I did duplicate their
marketing . I released a freeware restricted version. I keep the
registered version at a reasonable price Oh! That’s right, I should have
made it $5!

: : 4 You must get the word out that your stuff exists, even create your
: market. Tell people about the existing CoCo web sites, discussion groups,
: clubs, and the CoCo emulator and all the programs that will run on it.
This
: would help bring old CoCo users out of the closet.

Let’s see, I uploaded several messages to Delphi and the listserver. I
e-mailed people. I located a US distributor, Rick’s Computer Enterprise
and I payed money more than what I have got back so far for a space on
the web to create a very informative web page which may I add, allows
anyone to download my earlier programs for FREE! I even hosted a Delphi
Conference for anyone to log in and ask me questions of which only two
people
showed up.

: I hope these ideas are useful to you. Again, don’t expect overwhelming
: support for the CoCo or any outdated system. Either do it out of pure joy
of
: programming for the CoCo accepting what you comes back, or move on to a
: platform that has a bigger market.

Ok. You’ve convinced me. You’re right. I’m wasting my time with the CoCo.
I should just sit back, not worry about programming anything major. Just
tinker with the occasional subroutine, check the web every now and then to
see
if there is anything to download for free and generally ride the final CoCo
wave to its eventual death. As long as I enjoy myself along the way, who
cares! Not much point trying to be a hero.

Here’s a question. If you were tempted to create a CoCo product with the
understanding that you were to give the program away free, your only reward
being a pat on the back and everyone saying how wonderfull you are, how
much
time do you feel you would spend on it? How long do you think it would take
you to complete? How much detail and “jazzing” up would you do before you
released the final product?

Now ask yourself the same questions but this time let’s say that 50 people
have committed themselves to buy your product.

Most people would answer by saying that, if they knew 50 people were
waiting
to buy, they would work harder to complete the product quicker while the
interest was there. They would ensure that the product was as good as
possible
so as to avoid customer dissapointment.

The moral of the story is that you get what you pay for. Not prepared to
pay,
then no one is obliged to create or go the extra effort.

Nickolas Marentes

e-mail: nickm [at] launch [dot] net [dot] au
www: launch.net.au/~nickm/coco

17 comments to The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:12:30 -0600
    Reply-To: Carl Boll – System Operator
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Carl Boll – System Operator
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?
    In-Reply-To: <199802111458 [dot] IAA29898 [at] mail [dot] xnet [dot] com> from “Nickolas Marentes” at
    Feb 11, 98 11:47:47 am

    While thinking of something else Nickolas Marentes’s fingers typed:

    #> Here’s a question. If you were tempted to create a CoCo product with the
    #> understanding that you were to give the program away free, your only reward
    #> being a pat on the back and everyone saying how wonderfull you are, how
    #> much
    #> time do you feel you would spend on it? How long do you think it would take
    #> you to complete? How much detail and “jazzing” up would you do before you
    #> released the final product?
    #>

    Uh, I’m going to jump in here and just make a comment because it is really
    needed.

    I have >NO< problem with the prices taht you, Chet and Roger Taylor are
    asking for your respective products. I think it is more than fair. Let’s
    not get into the how much time would you spend for nothing, etc. though.

    I have way too many manhours invested in a project that nets me nothing
    whatsoever. I have spent a lot of money on the IDE project and will never
    recoup a penny of it. That is my own doing, fault whatever and I am not
    saying that >ANYBODY< should do the same. I do get bent a little out of
    shape when I start seeing these types of posts though because people
    like Eddie Kuns, Mark Farrell, Gene Brooks and Brian Goers >HAVE< spent
    many, many hours on this project with no personal gain whatsoever. The
    whole project is being done non-profit. This includes the software that
    will be given away with the interface and later released to the public.

    I should also mention that Alan Dekok spent a lot of hours which he never
    got a penny for either working on the original drivers…this is where
    the current driver came from, that and the one Jim Hathaway wrote.

    To take this one step farther the same goes for the Fest. Tony Podraza,
    Brian Schubring, Mike Knudsen, Bob Swoger and a host of others spend
    time and money getting the Fest together and they never make a penny
    from it. It costs them money every year. Just the gas and phone calls.

    So, too all the people who do spend a lot of time and money for no
    recompense. I thank you. I think that everybody in the community should
    thank you.

    And to Nick and Chet and John and Roger and anybody else who developing
    a commercial product, regardless of the price, Thank you too. You are
    what we need to keep the community going as well as people like the
    ones I mentioned and the ones I forgot.

    Carl

    ************************************************************
    * Carl Boll: sysop [at] chicoco [dot] chi [dot] il [dot] us *
    * root [at] chicoco [dot] chi [dot] il [dot] us *
    ************************************************************
    * PLEASE HELP SUPPORT THE COCO! MAKE PLANS FOR THE *
    * CHICAGO FEST. THE PA FEST MAY BE CANCELLED DUE TO *
    * LACK OF INTEREST ON THE PART OF VENDORS. IF YOU’D *
    * LIKE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, SPEAK OUT! IF YOU *
    * STAY SILENT NOTHING WILL CHANGE. REMEMBER, SUPPORT *
    * IS A TWO-WAY STREET, DON’T EXPECT IT IF YOU DON’T *
    * HELP GIVE IT! THE COCO COMMUNITY NEEDS YOUR HELP. *
    ************************************************************

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:08:37 GMT
    Reply-To: JIM HICKLE
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: JIM HICKLE
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    Pac-Man? Where/how can I buy a copy? I never had
    any money back when they still made CoCo’s. OK, I’m
    still broke, but can divert funds from the gas bill.

    prefer a real mailing address… can’t connect to
    launch.net.au/~nickm/coco and i hate that stinking
    web anyway.

    -jim

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:25:31 -4
    Reply-To: Chet Simpson
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    Comments: Authenticated sender is
    From: Chet Simpson

    Organization: Americast
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?
    In-Reply-To: <199802112338.PAA01893@thebrain>

    > Hmmmmm….. Once again, give me the right to my opinion and hear me out.

    > What we need is some sort of collaboration among all you expert coco programme
    rs!

    We already talk to each other. And if we are looking for specific information
    we are more than happy to give it up. You have absolutly no idea what types
    of conversations or information sharing that already goes on between developers.

    > Originality needs to arise and some games that push the processing limits of
    > the coco3 need to be created.

    Digger II is mostly an original concept. The game play, the action, the methods
    and the AI of the enemies. The only thing that isn’t is the premise of the game
    which is based on the original LoadRunner game, which I doubt very highly you
    have ever seen.

    As far as pushing the processing limits. You must not have any clue as to
    what Digger II is all about OR what it does. There are games that scroll
    horizontally and there are games that scroll vertically. However, I am
    not aware of ANY on the CoCo III that scroll in all four directions
    corrections are welcome.

    What exactly DO you consider to be ‘pushing’ the limits of the CoCo?

    Digger II:

    4 way full screen scrolling with a static score bar.
    Digital sound effects playing at 8khz most play at 6khz
    20 frames per second with many sprites on the screen while scrolling.
    30 action packed levels designed by Eric Crichlow

    Guido? Well that game will push it to the NEXT level with a much
    faster sprite engine allowing more on the screen while running at
    a hopefully faster framerate.

    > I know that this is all just a free-time thing
    > for most of us, so I honestly cant tell anyone to drop everything else and
    > begin work on the epitome of coco games right now, but just keep in mind the
    > fact that great games will bring in a large amount of cash.

    Have you seen Digger II? Have you PLAYED it? What makes you think that
    it’s not already a great game that pushes the Coco III to it’s limits?
    Have you even bothered to listen to the comments of the people who have
    purchased it?

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:52:06 PST
    Reply-To: Jim Cox
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Jim Cox
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    Regarding the issue of developing games for the CoCo, one has to consider that a
    ccording
    to industry estimates, it takes over 200 people to develope a “HOT” computer gam
    e. Sure
    there are exception such as Myst but, do you realize that the two borthers who o
    riginally
    created Myst pretty much had to mortgage everything to get that title out.

    Considering that Myst and most other “HOT” computer games are coded for the PC m
    arket
    which has gazillions of potential customers and that the potential CoCo market i
    s
    a fraction of a percetage of that, I think that the effort that’s being put fort
    h by
    those who are still developing code for the CoCo is exceptional.

    Sure, I’d like to see some role-playing type games for the CoCo but, to be reali
    stic,
    what the computer public has come to expct from their systems is technically far
    beyond
    what our beloved CoCo can do. Lord knows that there are some of us who continue
    to push
    the limits though ;-

    I’ve used the analogy before and I’ll use it agian, the CoCo’s like a old Model
    T that
    we can hotrod all we want but, I don’t think we can break the land speed record
    with it.

    To those who are still programming games for the CoCo I just want to say I appre
    ciate
    your work even though I am not much into computer games any more but, you may wa
    nt to
    take one thing into account when you wonder about slow sales and that is, most C
    oCo’s
    can be had for as little as $50 for a system at the local thrift store and the p
    eople
    who are buying them are hobbiests like us or those who can’t afford much else.
    I’m
    not discouraging you from continuing to write for the CoCo, as a matter of fact
    I do
    encourage any developement for the CoCo but, facts is facts.

    Let’s all keep CoCo’ing and supporting each other in what ever way we can.

    Jim Cox

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:28:54 EST
    Reply-To: IMDEAD1 [at] AOL [dot] COM
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Jeremy XVI
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    >The moral of the story is that you get what you pay for. Not prepared to
    >pay,
    >then no one is obliged to create or go the extra effort.
    >
    >Nickolas Marentes

    Hmmmmm….. Once again, give me the right to my opinion and hear me out. What
    we need is some sort of collaboration among all you expert coco programmers!
    Originality needs to arise and some games that push the processing limits of
    the coco3 need to be created. I know that this is all just a free-time thing
    for most of us, so I honestly cant tell anyone to drop everything else and
    begin work on the epitome of coco games right now, but just keep in mind the
    fact that great games will bring in a large amount of cash.

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:23:00 -0800
    Reply-To: “Mr. Data”
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: “Mr. Data”
    Organization: All USENET — http://www.Supernews.com
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    I guess I shouldn’t be surprised to see this message, See my comments below.

    Nickolas Marentes wrote in message <01bd36df$5d768fe0$6f2c0fcb@qmnmaren>…
    >I read this on the listserver lost the senders name and felt I had to
    >reply to some of the comments which made me feel quite negative about the
    >future of the CoCo. While the comments made are quite true to an extent,
    >I feel that the comments reflect an attitude of one who really has given up
    >hope in the CoCo. I can only hope that those who share these thoughts are
    >few.

    There is no hope to give up. I am sure there probably some diehard betamax
    users users floating around telling their friends how much betamax was over
    VHS. I like the CoCo, had fun learning on it, programming and hacking away
    till the system didn’t look like anything off the shelf and all that. I have
    been sorry to see the support fall off as it has, but I’m not going get all
    choked up about it. It’s a peice of hardware!

    >
    >So you are saying that I should sell Pac-man for $5 $29.95 divided by 6
    >games? If my calculations are correct, that would mean that of the 14
    >copies sold so far I would have made $70 less my expenses which will
    >probably bring it more in line to around $60. Have I spent the last 6
    >months
    >of my spare time for a measly $60!! I can stand on a corner holding a tin
    >can
    >for ONE day and get more than that!

    So money is important to you! You said in previous posts you did it for the
    joy of programming the CoCo and that the money didn’t matter. No one expects
    you to sell it for a price other than what you want, but stop crying about
    the low response to what is basically a rip-off of someone elses work with a
    ton of look alikes running on multiple platforms.

    > What you are missing is the fact that
    >there are millions more PC users out there than CoCo users. They will
    >easily sell more than 14 copies. If the CoCo had more buying customers,
    >then I too could afford to sell Pac-man at a lower price! Yes I know that
    >there are MAME emulators than run the original Pac-man. But if you take
    >that sort of thinking, why run ANYTHING at all on the CoCo. The PC has
    >more games, more wordprocessor, more spreadsheets, multi-tasking OS’s,
    >more of everything! Why should we even bother with the CoCo when we have
    >the PC!? Are you saying we should forget the CoCo? Doesn’t it interest you
    >to see software created for the CoCo that shows what the CoCo is capable
    >of?

    I am not saying to forget about anything. I am not missing anything here.
    You are the one trying to market to an almost non-existant market. I think
    you have done quite well selling 14 copies. I don’t know how many people
    actually know about your pac-man game from the groups, clubs, etc. I only
    see a handful of people posting to this group. Let’s say you successfully
    reach 100 people, that’s 14%, not a bad return when you consider some don’t
    have the funds, some don’t care, some don’t want another pac-man, some might
    be waiting till later, some don’t have a CoCo 3…I am sure there are other
    reasons.

    >I have a PC at home that runs DOOM and all those PC games but what I find
    >much more impressive is seeing what can be done on a 2Mhz CoCo3, not on a
    >200MHz PC! How fast does a machine have to be to run MAME Pac-man? Don’t
    >try it on anything less than a Pentium 100! What about some of the other
    >shareware versions on the PC? Try a minimum of 486 at 25MHz with at least
    >4Mb RAM.

    So what’s the big deal. The power is there, the sound, graphics and stuff is
    all better as well as the versatility of the machines. It isn’t bad because
    it is bigger. If a CoCo existed today with the same type of speed,power and
    resources, programs would be bigger too. If memory wasn’t important, the
    CoCo wouldn’t have gone to 32 to 64 to 128 to 512 and then 2meg add-ons.

    > I get great enjoyment when I see well written software released
    >for our CoCo. It makes me proud to support these programmers.
    >

    Good for you. Then support them, just don’t expect huge support for new CoCo
    software. I only buy software that I want, not because someone did a good
    job on it.

    >: 2 Create new original games in the classic style of the old CoCo
    >favorites
    >: i.e. Sands of Egypt, Zaxxon, Grabber, etc..
    >
    >Original!? Sands of Egypt was a license which originated on another machine
    >Apple I think. As for Zaxxon, it’s a Sega arcade game licenced by
    >Datasoft,
    >converted to practically all the computers at the time including the CoCo.

    I know that, I was suggesting writing creative classic STYLE arcade and
    adventure games similar in nature to games like Zaxxon, Sands of egypt,etc.
    not copies or remakes of any game in particular. I wasn’t implying that
    these games were unique to the CoCo. With all the Doom and other 3D game
    hype out there as fun as they can be, many still like classic “Style”
    arcade games.

    >: 3 Find out how the successful PC shareware companies have marketed their
    >: software and duplicate where possible.
    >
    >First you have to have a market that is willing to buy. No point in
    >continueing if you don’t have this first! I thought I did duplicate their
    >marketing . I released a freeware restricted version. I keep the
    >registered version at a reasonable price Oh! That’s right, I should have
    >made it $5!

    You figured it out! That’s the point. The market isn’t there, but you
    continue to expect it and complain because you didn’t get what you wanted,
    even though you say money isn’t important but it really is. As I mentioned
    in one of my posts, you can do everything right and still not succeed even
    if there was a market.

    >: : 4 You must get the word out that your stuff exists, even create your
    >: market. Tell people about the existing CoCo web sites, discussion groups,
    >: clubs, and the CoCo emulator and all the programs that will run on it.
    >This
    >: would help bring old CoCo users out of the closet.
    >
    >Let’s see, I uploaded several messages to Delphi and the listserver. I
    >e-mailed people. I located a US distributor, Rick’s Computer Enterprise
    >and I payed money more than what I have got back so far for a space on
    >the web to create a very informative web page which may I add, allows
    >anyone to download my earlier programs for FREE! I even hosted a Delphi
    >Conference for anyone to log in and ask me questions of which only two
    >people
    >showed up.

    And you assume that you have done everything right and actually reached many
    potentical customers. Even the best of products with huge ripe markets don’t
    always take off right away, sometimes for years with millions of dollars in
    ton’s of effort put in to advertising. Why should your results be any
    different?

    >: I hope these ideas are useful to you. Again, don’t expect overwhelming
    >: support for the CoCo or any outdated system. Either do it out of pure joy
    >of
    >: programming for the CoCo accepting what you comes back, or move on to a
    >: platform that has a bigger market.
    >
    >Ok. You’ve convinced me. You’re right. I’m wasting my time with the CoCo.
    >I should just sit back, not worry about programming anything major. Just
    >tinker with the occasional subroutine, check the web every now and then to
    >see
    >if there is anything to download for free and generally ride the final CoCo
    >wave to its eventual death. As long as I enjoy myself along the way, who
    >cares! Not much point trying to be a hero.

    Fine, be sarcastic. You are just proving more and more as you go along that
    money was good portion of this and the pure joy of programming the CoCo is
    not as much of a joy as you said it was. If the CoCo needs any type of new
    products, it is original or new things that extend it such as the IDE
    controller or new updated software and OS features. Games are great, but
    again, most of us have played pac-man to death already. I just don’t see the
    priority there.

    >Here’s a question. If you were tempted to create a CoCo product with the
    >understanding that you were to give the program away free, your only reward
    >being a pat on the back and everyone saying how wonderfull you are, how
    >much
    >time do you feel you would spend on it? How long do you think it would take
    >you to complete? How much detail and “jazzing” up would you do before you
    >released the final product?

    Again, you have contradicted your early posts that said money was not a big
    deal. It obviously is. I wouldn’t attempt to create a serious CoCo product
    because of the small market. Any product I will create will be for the PC. I
    have a few PC shareware programs out there and have made a few $100 more
    than I expected on them, one even got a write up in a magazine. But, even
    with the low sales, I was not depressed, I didn’t go complaining to anyone.
    I really did do it for fun and thought I’d release to see what would happen.
    I have another program that I spent a reasonable amount of time on and I
    give it away free on my webpage, I may do a shareware version later.

    >Now ask yourself the same questions but this time let’s say that 50 people
    >have committed themselves to buy your product.
    >
    >Most people would answer by saying that, if they knew 50 people were
    >waiting
    >to buy, they would work harder to complete the product quicker while the
    >interest was there. They would ensure that the product was as good as
    >possible
    >so as to avoid customer dissapointment.

    Maybe, maybe not. If I had 50 committed and/or prepaid orders, yes. People
    will always express interest when asked about such things, that doesn’t
    guarantee a customer down the road.

    >The moral of the story is that you get what you pay for. Not prepared to
    >pay,
    >then no one is obliged to create or go the extra effort.
    >Nickolas Marentes

    Yes you get what you pay for, but most purchase finished products.
    Developers and Manufacturers must I know this might be hard to swallow
    take RISK! You make the product, you risk time, money, etc. It might do
    well, it might not. Welcome to the wonderful world of economics! No one owes
    you! You don’t owe the market. You decide what you want to RISK.
    >

    Sorry to get so blunt as I did in the message, I started by trying offer
    suggestions, but you obviously took offense. That wasn’t my intent.

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:36:12 -0800
    Reply-To: Chet Simpson
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Chet Simpson
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    This was originally just going to be an email message, but since you seem to
    have no name and your email address is bogus, I’ll have to post it publicly.
    **NOTE** This message is somewhat long and is in the normal
    Chet “The Cynical Saint” Simpson style. I encourage all to at least read
    the
    last part of this message dealing with the CoCo Spirit.

    >There is no hope to give up. I am sure there probably some diehard betamax
    >users users floating around telling their friends how much betamax was over
    >VHS. I like the CoCo, had fun learning on it, programming and hacking away
    >till the system didn’t look like anything off the shelf and all that. I
    have
    >been sorry to see the support fall off as it has, but I’m not going get all
    >choked up about it. It’s a peice of hardware!

    Attempting to insult the intelligence, values or beliefs of many of the
    members
    here will get you nowhere. The fact that even Larry Greenfield is upset my
    god
    the world is ending! is an indication that something is definatly *WRONG*
    here.
    So you had fun programming and hacking and all that. You obviously have no
    idea
    what the CoCo is all about and it is doubtful that you ever will.

    >So money is important to you! You said in previous posts you did it for the
    >joy of programming the CoCo and that the money didn’t matter. No one
    expects

    Look twit, you really need to follow along, get a clue and pay attention
    because
    you’re making references to the wrong people. Along with misquoting people,
    you’re distorting the facts. *I* am the one who said that “money was not
    the
    issue”, not “money was not important” or “money didn’t matter”. If you are
    going
    to paraphrase people, at least get the person you’re paraphrasing rght and
    try to
    make it at least *CLOSE* to what the person originally said.

    Just to refresh your short memory, here is the quote from Nick that you seem
    to be
    hung up on:

    “The money part is just the cream.”

    >you to sell it for a price other than what you want, but stop crying about
    >the low response to what is basically a rip-off of someone elses work with
    a
    >ton of look alikes running on multiple platforms.

    Basically a rip-off? So now we’re to accusations. Now, I know that the
    name
    PacMan, the art and the music is copyrighted. However, the characterizations
    are not trademarked as far as I know. The “work” is 100% Nick’s. He did
    the
    programming, he drew the artwork.

    >I am not saying to forget about anything.

    Really? Here’s a direct quote from a message you posted on the 7th:

    “Either do it out of pure joy of programming for the CoCo accepting what you
    comes
    back, or move on to a platform that has a bigger market.”

    I think that recommending he go to a different platform you’ve implied that
    he
    ‘forget’ about the CoCo?

    >So what’s the big deal. The power is there, the sound, graphics and stuff
    is
    >all better as well as the versatility of the machines. It isn’t bad because
    >it is bigger. If a CoCo existed today with the same type of speed,power and
    >resources, programs would be bigger too. If memory wasn’t important, the
    >CoCo wouldn’t have gone to 32 to 64 to 128 to 512 and then 2meg add-ons.

    You can continue to live in you’re “what-if” world, while you sit back and
    chastize
    the developers for being disappointed in the lack of response to new
    software
    and when the rest of us are saddened by the lack of *NO* new programs or
    vendors or magazines or fests in about 3 years, I’m sure you won’t care,
    because
    after all, to you, it’s just a machine.

    >Good for you. Then support them, just don’t expect huge support for new
    CoCo
    >software. I only buy software that I want, not because someone did a good
    >job on it.

    This comes to a new issue. You’ve complained about the authors expressing
    their
    opinion at the lack of response yet you’ve really made no effort to make any
    suggestions as to what you would really like to see.

    >I know that, I was suggesting writing creative classic STYLE arcade and
    >adventure games similar in nature to games like Zaxxon, Sands of
    egypt,etc.
    >not copies or remakes of any game in particular. I wasn’t implying that
    >these games were unique to the CoCo. With all the Doom and other 3D game
    >hype out there as fun as they can be, many still like classic “Style”
    >arcade games.

    Yet again, you start making assumptions about things you have not even seen
    need me to quote you on that?. Digger II for example is written in the
    classic
    STYLE arcade games. Did you download the demo? Did you look at the
    screen shots? Ohh yeah, wait, you havn’t seen it, but you’re still going to
    make
    comments about things you don’t know anything about.

    >You figured it out! That’s the point. The market isn’t there, but you
    >continue to expect it and complain because you didn’t get what you wanted,

    Actually, yes, the market is there, but the negative attitudes that people
    like
    you have towards developers. Sure, we’ve express our opinions about being
    disappointed at the lack of response on the games, big deal. But unlike
    some
    of your responses, we havn’t chastized the users for *NOT* purcahsing them,
    nor have we said that they *SHOULD* buy them. We have said they should
    *TRY* to *SUPPORT* vendors by purchasing new products. This ensures
    that new products are created.

    >even though you say money isn’t important but it really is. As I
    mentioned
    >in one of my posts, you can do everything right and still not succeed even
    >if there was a market.

    Now this is really starting to get annoying. You continue to attempt
    putting
    words into peoples mouths as well as making comments that simply are not
    true. Essentially you’ve implied that both Nick and I are just spouting
    lies and
    we’re all money-grubbing greedy pricks who are bitching about nobody
    buying our products. Get a clue.

    >And you assume that you have done everything right and actually reached
    many
    >potentical customers. Even the best of products with huge ripe markets
    don’t
    >always take off right away, sometimes for years with millions of dollars in
    >ton’s of effort put in to advertising. Why should your results be any
    >different?

    Actually, he has. Not only has he done the Web thing and the Delphi thing
    and
    the Listserv thing, but he’s also done the Ad thing. He’s pretty much
    covered about
    as many bases as you can on the CoCo. The problem that you *ARE* forgetting
    is
    that the *ONLY* important aspect that the money plays in this is that it
    allows him to
    purchase ad’s and web space and print documents, etc. Ads are not cheap.
    Even
    if he sells 3 copies per month, he’s still probably not making enough money
    to cover
    all of the expenses of getting the word out. But I’m sure that in your
    eyes, the
    software should be free anyways since there is no market.

    >Fine, be sarcastic. You are just proving more and more as you go along that
    >money was good portion of this and the pure joy of programming the CoCo is
    >not as much of a joy as you said it was. If the CoCo needs any type of new

    Another misquote, another assumption and another total strike-out in the
    game of
    debate. In hope that you’ll actually be able to understand and comprehend
    what we
    are talking about when it comes to money, please go back and re-read that
    last part
    of my message yes, the one you just read.

    >products, it is original or new things that extend it such as the IDE
    >controller or new updated software and OS features. Games are great, but
    >again, most of us have played pac-man to death already. I just don’t see
    the
    >priority there.

    And I’m sure you’ve played something like Digger to death as well. Hell, I
    played
    Rayman and Earthworm Jim to death. If didn’t keep me from getting OddWorld.
    They’re all the same types of games…but since they’re all the same types
    of
    games, to you it’s just a waste of money isn’t it.

    You also make the assumption that everyone who has a CoCo also has an I/c
    to
    keep Eric happy system or Mac or Linux or whatever. Many don’t. I know
    several
    people, some on this list, that only had a CoCo up until the past year.

    >Again, you have contradicted your early posts that said money was not a big
    >deal. It obviously is. I wouldn’t attempt to create a serious CoCo product
    >because of the small market. Any product I will create will be for the PC.
    I

    Since I’m getting tired of repeating myself on this matter, go back to the
    top of this
    message and read my first few comments. Better yet, read this message
    several
    times until you have it memorized, that way the next time you quote
    somebody,
    you’ll get it right.

    >have a few PC shareware programs out there and have made a few $100 more
    >than I expected on them, one even got a write up in a magazine. But, even

    I’m suprise you even bother to write programs. Even so, I would like to see
    them.

    >with the low sales, I was not depressed, I didn’t go complaining to anyone.
    >I really did do it for fun and thought I’d release to see what would
    happen.
    >I have another program that I spent a reasonable amount of time on and I
    >give it away free on my webpage, I may do a shareware version later.

    Of course not,. It’s hard to get upset when you release a program to a
    market that
    is saturated with 1000′s of others just like it. However, I don’t know of
    ANY Pacman
    or Digger type games for the CoCo III.

    >Maybe, maybe not. If I had 50 committed and/or prepaid orders, yes. People
    >will always express interest when asked about such things, that doesn’t
    >guarantee a customer down the road.

    You definatly have no idea about the spirit of the CoCo or it’s users.
    Sadly, I don’t
    think you ever will. You see, we are a small community. A community that
    goes the
    extra mile just to help others who need it. Things such as sending people
    free
    parts or locating monitors or finding and typing up technical information,
    etc.
    We’re not greedy or corporate types. We see that something is lacking and
    we
    try to contribute something. All of the people here are patient and giving
    people
    they have to be in order to put up with me. We try to do what we can when
    we
    can for each other. Plain and simple. Maybe you just don’t understand the
    mentatlity.

    >Yes you get what you pay for, but most purchase finished products.

    What are you trying to say with this?! We don’t have “finished” products?
    Seems
    that is what you *ARE* implying.

    >Developers and Manufacturers must I know this might be hard to swallow
    >take RISK! You make the product, you risk time, money, etc. It might do
    >well, it might not. Welcome to the wonderful world of economics! No one
    owes
    >you! You don’t owe the market. You decide what you want to RISK.

    Nick has already taken and I am about to. How much do you think an ad
    costs?
    Where exactly do you think that money came from?

    >Sorry to get so blunt as I did in the message, I started by trying offer
    >suggestions, but you obviously took offense. That wasn’t my intent.

    No, we don’t take offense to suggestions, but we do take offense to the
    misquoting of opinions, mis-statement of facts, assinign assumptions and
    accusations. I would appologize for being hard, but to be truthful, I’m not
    sorry.

    …Chet…

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:42:34 GMT
    Reply-To: medialinkdev [at] earthlink [dot] net
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Chet Simpson
    Organization: MediaLink Development
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    This was originally just going to be an email message, but since you
    seem to have no name and your email address is bogus, I’ll have to
    post it publicly. **NOTE** This message is somewhat long and is in
    the normal Chet “The Cynical Saint” Simpson style. I encourage all to
    at least read the last part of this message dealing with the CoCo
    Spirit.

    >There is no hope to give up. I am sure there probably some diehard betamax
    >users users floating around telling their friends how much betamax was over
    >VHS. I like the CoCo, had fun learning on it, programming and hacking away
    >till the system didn’t look like anything off the shelf and all that. I have
    >been sorry to see the support fall off as it has, but I’m not going get all
    >choked up about it. It’s a peice of hardware!

    Attempting to insult the intelligence, values or beliefs of many of
    the members here will get you nowhere. The fact that even Larry
    Greenfield is upset my god the world is ending! is an indication
    that something is definatly *WRONG* here. So you had fun programming
    and hacking and all that. You obviously have no idea what the CoCo is
    all about and it is doubtful that you ever will.

    >So money is important to you! You said in previous posts you did it for the
    >joy of programming the CoCo and that the money didn’t matter. No one expects

    Look twit, you really need to follow along, get a clue and pay
    attention because you’re making references to the wrong people. Along
    with misquoting people, you’re distorting the facts. *I* am the one
    who said that “money was not the issue”, not “money was not important”
    or “money didn’t matter”. If you are going to paraphrase people, at
    least get the person you’re paraphrasing rght and try to make it at
    least *CLOSE* to what the person originally said.

    Just to refresh your short memory, here is the quote from Nick that
    you seem to be hung up on:

    “The money part is just the cream.”

    >you to sell it for a price other than what you want, but stop crying about
    >the low response to what is basically a rip-off of someone elses work with a
    >ton of look alikes running on multiple platforms.

    Basically a rip-off? So now we’re to accusations. Now, I know that
    the name PacMan, the art and the music is copyrighted. However, the
    characterizations are not trademarked as far as I know. The “work” is
    100% Nick’s. He did the programming, he drew the artwork.

    >I am not saying to forget about anything.

    Really? Here’s a direct quote from a message you posted on the 7th:

    “Either do it out of pure joy of programming for the CoCo accepting
    what you comes back, or move on to a platform that has a bigger
    market.”

    I think that recommending he go to a different platform you’ve implied
    that he ‘forget’ about the CoCo?

    >So what’s the big deal. The power is there, the sound, graphics and stuff is
    >all better as well as the versatility of the machines. It isn’t bad because
    >it is bigger. If a CoCo existed today with the same type of speed,power and
    >resources, programs would be bigger too. If memory wasn’t important, the
    >CoCo wouldn’t have gone to 32 to 64 to 128 to 512 and then 2meg add-ons.

    You can continue to live in you’re “what-if” world, while you sit back
    and chastize the developers for being disappointed in the lack of
    response to new software and when the rest of us are saddened by the
    lack of *NO* new programs or vendors or magazines or fests in about 3
    years, I’m sure you won’t care, because after all, to you, it’s just a
    machine.

    >Good for you. Then support them, just don’t expect huge support for new CoCo
    >software. I only buy software that I want, not because someone did a good
    >job on it.

    This comes to a new issue. You’ve complained about the authors
    expressing their opinion at the lack of response yet you’ve really
    made no effort to make any suggestions as to what you would really
    like to see.

    >I know that, I was suggesting writing creative classic STYLE arcade and
    >adventure games similar in nature to games like Zaxxon, Sands of egypt,etc.
    >not copies or remakes of any game in particular. I wasn’t implying that
    >these games were unique to the CoCo. With all the Doom and other 3D game
    >hype out there as fun as they can be, many still like classic “Style”
    >arcade games.

    Yet again, you start making assumptions about things you have not even
    seen need me to quote you on that?. Digger II for example is
    written in the classic STYLE arcade games. Did you download the demo?
    Did you look at the screen shots? Ohh yeah, wait, you havn’t seen it,
    but you’re still going to make comments about things you don’t know
    anything about.

    >You figured it out! That’s the point. The market isn’t there, but you
    >continue to expect it and complain because you didn’t get what you wanted,

    Actually, yes, the market is there, but the negative attitudes that
    people like you have towards developers. Sure, we’ve express our
    opinions about being disappointed at the lack of response on the
    games, big deal. But unlike some of your responses, we havn’t
    chastized the users for *NOT* purcahsing them, nor have we said that
    they *SHOULD* buy them. We have said they should *TRY* to *SUPPORT*
    vendors by purchasing new products. This ensures that new products
    are created.

    >even though you say money isn’t important but it really is. As I mentioned
    >in one of my posts, you can do everything right and still not succeed even
    >if there was a market.

    Now this is really starting to get annoying. You continue to attempt
    putting words into peoples mouths as well as making comments that
    simply are not true. Essentially you’ve implied that both Nick and I
    are just spouting lies and we’re all money-grubbing greedy pricks who
    are bitching about nobody buying our products. Get a clue.

    >And you assume that you have done everything right and actually reached many
    >potentical customers. Even the best of products with huge ripe markets don’t
    >always take off right away, sometimes for years with millions of dollars in
    >ton’s of effort put in to advertising. Why should your results be any
    >different?

    Actually, he has. Not only has he done the Web thing and the Delphi
    thing and the Listserv thing, but he’s also done the Ad thing. He’s
    pretty much covered about as many bases as you can on the CoCo. The
    problem that you *ARE* forgetting is that the *ONLY* important aspect
    that the money plays in this is that it allows him to purchase ad’s
    and web space and print documents, etc. Ads are not cheap. Even if
    he sells 3 copies per month, he’s still probably not making enough
    money to cover all of the expenses of getting the word out. But I’m
    sure that in your eyes, the software should be free anyways since
    there is no market.

    >Fine, be sarcastic. You are just proving more and more as you go along that
    >money was good portion of this and the pure joy of programming the CoCo is
    >not as much of a joy as you said it was. If the CoCo needs any type of new

    Another misquote, another assumption and another total strike-out in
    the game of debate. In hope that you’ll actually be able to
    understand and comprehend what we are talking about when it comes to
    money, please go back and re-read that last part of my message yes,
    the one you just read.

    >products, it is original or new things that extend it such as the IDE
    >controller or new updated software and OS features. Games are great, but
    >again, most of us have played pac-man to death already. I just don’t see the
    >priority there.

    And I’m sure you’ve played something like Digger to death as well.
    Hell, I played Rayman and Earthworm Jim to death. If didn’t keep me
    from getting OddWorld. They’re all the same types of games…but
    since they’re all the same types of games, to you it’s just a waste of
    money isn’t it.

    You also make the assumption that everyone who has a CoCo also has an
    I/c to keep Eric happy system or Mac or Linux or whatever. Many
    don’t. I know several people, some on this list, that only had a CoCo
    up until the past year.

    >Again, you have contradicted your early posts that said money was not a big
    >deal. It obviously is. I wouldn’t attempt to create a serious CoCo product
    >because of the small market. Any product I will create will be for the PC. I

    Since I’m getting tired of repeating myself on this matter, go back to
    the top of this message and read my first few comments. Better yet,
    read this message several times until you have it memorized, that way
    the next time you quote somebody, you’ll get it right.

    >have a few PC shareware programs out there and have made a few $100 more
    >than I expected on them, one even got a write up in a magazine. But, even

    I’m suprise you even bother to write programs. Even so, I would like
    to see them.

    >with the low sales, I was not depressed, I didn’t go complaining to anyone.
    >I really did do it for fun and thought I’d release to see what would happen.
    >I have another program that I spent a reasonable amount of time on and I
    >give it away free on my webpage, I may do a shareware version later.

    Of course not,. It’s hard to get upset when you release a program to
    a market that is saturated with 1000′s of others just like it.
    However, I don’t know of ANY Pacman or Digger type games for the CoCo
    III.

    >Maybe, maybe not. If I had 50 committed and/or prepaid orders, yes. People
    >will always express interest when asked about such things, that doesn’t
    >guarantee a customer down the road.

    You definatly have no idea about the spirit of the CoCo or it’s users.
    Sadly, I don’t think you ever will. You see, we are a small
    community. A community that goes the extra mile just to help others
    who need it. Things such as sending people free parts or locating
    monitors or finding and typing up technical information, etc. We’re
    not greedy or corporate types. We see that something is lacking and
    we try to contribute something. All of the people here are patient
    and giving people they have to be in order to put up with me. We try
    to do what we can when we can for each other. Plain and simple.
    Maybe you just don’t understand the mentatlity.

    >Yes you get what you pay for, but most purchase finished products.

    What are you trying to say with this?! We don’t have “finished”
    products? Seems that is what you *ARE* implying.

    >Developers and Manufacturers must I know this might be hard to swallow
    >take RISK! You make the product, you risk time, money, etc. It might do
    >well, it might not. Welcome to the wonderful world of economics! No one owes
    >you! You don’t owe the market. You decide what you want to RISK.

    Nick has already taken and I am about to. How much do you think an ad
    costs? Where exactly do you think that money came from?

    >Sorry to get so blunt as I did in the message, I started by trying offer
    >suggestions, but you obviously took offense. That wasn’t my intent.

    No, we don’t take offense to suggestions, but we do take offense to
    the misquoting of opinions, mis-statement of facts, assinign
    assumptions and accusations. I would appologize for being hard, but
    to be truthful, I’m not sorry.

    …Chet…

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:07:30 -0800
    Reply-To: Jeff Vavasour
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Jeff Vavasour
    Organization: Rogers WAVE
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    Jim Cox wrote in message <9802120052 [dot] AA08982 [at] athens [dot] amc [dot] com>…
    >Regarding the issue of developing games for the CoCo, one has to consider
    that a
    > ccording
    >to industry estimates, it takes over 200 people to develope a “HOT”
    computer gam
    > e. Sure
    >there are exception such as Myst but, do you realize that the two borthers
    who o
    > riginally
    >created Myst pretty much had to mortgage everything to get that title out.

    I beg to differ on that. Many trend-setting games are the vision of a small
    team or even one or two people. Not that they’ve been “mega-hits”, but I’ve
    worked on and/or contributed to 13 commercial games for PC and game consoles
    which, except for the two for the Sega Saturn, have all been considered
    succcesses in the eyes of our publisher, and not one of them has had a
    development team larger than seven people and typically its been less. Our
    publisher had more play testers in-house on the game than we had programmers
    and artists.

    Development costs go through the roof when you start making live-action FMV
    the focus of the game, or similarly if you have lots of 3D polygon modeling.
    Artists are expensive.

    On the main issue of debate — how much CoCo programmers charge for their
    products — this is simply the way free enterprise works. The person who
    creates the product sets a price, and you decide whether it’s worth it to
    you or not. If it is, and you want it, buy it. If it’s not, it sends a
    message to the person creating the product that it is not viable as it has
    been presented. The publisher then has the choice to decide if it’s worth
    it or not to try a different scheme. The thing that can get me really
    worked up about this is that, though it’s not come up here, “it’s not worth
    $xx” is the argument some use for justification of piracy, but that’s a
    whole separate debate…

    The point is that the consumers speak through their purchases or lack
    thereof. The publisher is the one who sets the price based on a multitude
    of reasons. It seems that many have taken it upon themselves to explain
    supply and demand and points of diminishing returns to Chet et al. I’m sure
    he understands market pricing. Moreso, he understands his costs for the
    product — both in material and emotional investment — better than the rest
    of us. That definitely has to factor into his decision. I don’t think any
    of us are qualified to make that judgment for him. At a basic level, the
    suggestion that going to $5 would net more profit is naive. Even if it was
    only about money and ignoring everything else, if, for example, he had $4 in
    expenses per sale then now he’s got to sell 16x as many copies at that price
    to make the same profit.

    It’s a sad thing if the community dissolves, but on the other hand, if
    you’re not willing to make the commitment to keep it alive, then that’s
    what’s got to happen. All the same, I don’t mean for that to sound as if
    anyone should be *blamed* for it though; I don’t believe in being
    indiscriminate about your purchases. If it isn’t something that appeals to
    you, or if it isn’t “worth it”, don’t buy it. What’s the point in a
    community surviving on disingenuous enthusiasm?

    Anyway, if you only have $5 and not $20 that you’d like to contribute to the
    CoCo community to show support, send it to the CoCoPS or something.

    BTW, on the subject line, to *me*, “rip-off” means something for which you
    paid x dollars and were sorely disappointed for doing so. I haven’t seen
    anyone post saying they actually purchased any of the games in question and
    were disappointed. Though I’m not purchasing the games myself since I
    write games all day, I’ve grown rather tired of them, but I do think that
    $20 is quiet reasonable for a small market like this. Ever wonder why Mac
    stuff is more expensive than PC stuff? Smaller market.

    - Jeff

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:12:30 -0800
    Reply-To: “Mr. Data”
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: “Mr. Data”
    Organization: All USENET — http://www.Supernews.com
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    Chet, All,

    You act like a bunch of great, nice, we’ll help you types. You are all so
    mature. But, it isn’t showing in your responses. I have typed stuff that
    was not what you wanted to hear, but I didn’t get heated until you started
    getting so damed emotional and throwing flames my way. I won’t waste my time
    going back to address all your heated points. I never expected anything from
    any of you. I offered suggestions, for situations you don’t like, that’s
    all. I could give a crap what you sell your programs for. I don’t expect
    anything free, most people don’t. I’ll just end with a few points.

    1 I understand and respect the desire to support the coco community, I have
    no problem with that, I am sure no one does.

    2 Business is Business. It’s great if one can do well at something they
    like, but for the last time, there are no guarantees! I hope you do make
    money or at the worst, break even for your expenses…but are you really
    surprised at some of the results? I Honestly don’t see how.

    Finally, I can’t let this one go since you went to what I’d call feeble
    lengths to justify it. Pac-Man. If you are so sure Nick didn’t violate
    anything here in doing a remake and selling it, why not contact the owners
    of the real Pac-Man and ask them what they think and see what happens. The
    only thing that is original is the code. That doesn’t make it right. What a
    bunch of self righteous idiots! I have seen the messages in the past
    indicating that piracy is bad, legal copies is good. It’s no different here,
    just a different way of breaking someone’s copyright.

    Later!

    Chet Simpson wrote in message <34e4b5af [dot] 5307856 [at] news [dot] earthlink [dot] net>…
    >This was originally just going to be an email message, but since you
    >seem to have no name and your email address is bogus, I’ll have to
    >post it publicly. **NOTE** This message is somewhat long and is in
    >the normal Chet “The Cynical Saint” Simpson style. I encourage all to
    >at least read the last part of this message dealing with the CoCo
    >Spirit.
    >
    >>There is no hope to give up. I am sure there probably some diehard betamax
    >>users users floating around telling their friends how much betamax was
    over
    >>VHS. I like the CoCo, had fun learning on it, programming and hacking away
    >>till the system didn’t look like anything off the shelf and all that. I
    have
    >>been sorry to see the support fall off as it has, but I’m not going get
    all
    >>choked up about it. It’s a peice of hardware!
    >
    >Attempting to insult the intelligence, values or beliefs of many of
    >the members here will get you nowhere. The fact that even Larry
    >Greenfield is upset my god the world is ending! is an indication
    >that something is definatly *WRONG* here. So you had fun programming
    >and hacking and all that. You obviously have no idea what the CoCo is
    >all about and it is doubtful that you ever will.
    >
    >>So money is important to you! You said in previous posts you did it for
    the
    >>joy of programming the CoCo and that the money didn’t matter. No one
    expects
    >
    >Look twit, you really need to follow along, get a clue and pay
    >attention because you’re making references to the wrong people. Along
    >with misquoting people, you’re distorting the facts. *I* am the one
    >who said that “money was not the issue”, not “money was not important”
    >or “money didn’t matter”. If you are going to paraphrase people, at
    >least get the person you’re paraphrasing rght and try to make it at
    >least *CLOSE* to what the person originally said.
    >
    >Just to refresh your short memory, here is the quote from Nick that
    >you seem to be hung up on:
    >
    > “The money part is just the cream.”
    >
    >>you to sell it for a price other than what you want, but stop crying about
    >>the low response to what is basically a rip-off of someone elses work with
    a
    >>ton of look alikes running on multiple platforms.
    >
    >Basically a rip-off? So now we’re to accusations. Now, I know that
    >the name PacMan, the art and the music is copyrighted. However, the
    >characterizations are not trademarked as far as I know. The “work” is
    >100% Nick’s. He did the programming, he drew the artwork.
    >
    >>I am not saying to forget about anything.
    >
    >Really? Here’s a direct quote from a message you posted on the 7th:
    >
    >
    >”Either do it out of pure joy of programming for the CoCo accepting
    >what you comes back, or move on to a platform that has a bigger
    >market.”
    >
    >I think that recommending he go to a different platform you’ve implied
    >that he ‘forget’ about the CoCo?
    >
    >>So what’s the big deal. The power is there, the sound, graphics and stuff
    is
    >>all better as well as the versatility of the machines. It isn’t bad
    because
    >>it is bigger. If a CoCo existed today with the same type of speed,power
    and
    >>resources, programs would be bigger too. If memory wasn’t important, the
    >>CoCo wouldn’t have gone to 32 to 64 to 128 to 512 and then 2meg add-ons.
    >
    >You can continue to live in you’re “what-if” world, while you sit back
    >and chastize the developers for being disappointed in the lack of
    >response to new software and when the rest of us are saddened by the
    >lack of *NO* new programs or vendors or magazines or fests in about 3
    >years, I’m sure you won’t care, because after all, to you, it’s just a
    >machine.
    >
    >>Good for you. Then support them, just don’t expect huge support for new
    CoCo
    >>software. I only buy software that I want, not because someone did a good
    >>job on it.
    >
    >This comes to a new issue. You’ve complained about the authors
    >expressing their opinion at the lack of response yet you’ve really
    >made no effort to make any suggestions as to what you would really
    >like to see.
    >
    >>I know that, I was suggesting writing creative classic STYLE arcade and
    >>adventure games similar in nature to games like Zaxxon, Sands of
    egypt,etc.
    >>not copies or remakes of any game in particular. I wasn’t implying that
    >>these games were unique to the CoCo. With all the Doom and other 3D game
    >>hype out there as fun as they can be, many still like classic “Style”
    >>arcade games.
    >
    >Yet again, you start making assumptions about things you have not even
    >seen need me to quote you on that?. Digger II for example is
    >written in the classic STYLE arcade games. Did you download the demo?
    >Did you look at the screen shots? Ohh yeah, wait, you havn’t seen it,
    >but you’re still going to make comments about things you don’t know
    >anything about.
    >
    >>You figured it out! That’s the point. The market isn’t there, but you
    >>continue to expect it and complain because you didn’t get what you wanted,
    >
    >Actually, yes, the market is there, but the negative attitudes that
    >people like you have towards developers. Sure, we’ve express our
    >opinions about being disappointed at the lack of response on the
    >games, big deal. But unlike some of your responses, we havn’t
    >chastized the users for *NOT* purcahsing them, nor have we said that
    >they *SHOULD* buy them. We have said they should *TRY* to *SUPPORT*
    >vendors by purchasing new products. This ensures that new products
    >are created.
    >
    >>even though you say money isn’t important but it really is. As I
    mentioned
    >>in one of my posts, you can do everything right and still not succeed even
    >>if there was a market.
    >
    >Now this is really starting to get annoying. You continue to attempt
    >putting words into peoples mouths as well as making comments that
    >simply are not true. Essentially you’ve implied that both Nick and I
    >are just spouting lies and we’re all money-grubbing greedy pricks who
    >are bitching about nobody buying our products. Get a clue.
    >
    >>And you assume that you have done everything right and actually reached
    many
    >>potentical customers. Even the best of products with huge ripe markets
    don’t
    >>always take off right away, sometimes for years with millions of dollars
    in
    >>ton’s of effort put in to advertising. Why should your results be any
    >>different?
    >
    >Actually, he has. Not only has he done the Web thing and the Delphi
    >thing and the Listserv thing, but he’s also done the Ad thing. He’s
    >pretty much covered about as many bases as you can on the CoCo. The
    >problem that you *ARE* forgetting is that the *ONLY* important aspect
    >that the money plays in this is that it allows him to purchase ad’s
    >and web space and print documents, etc. Ads are not cheap. Even if
    >he sells 3 copies per month, he’s still probably not making enough
    >money to cover all of the expenses of getting the word out. But I’m
    >sure that in your eyes, the software should be free anyways since
    >there is no market.
    >
    >>Fine, be sarcastic. You are just proving more and more as you go along
    that
    >>money was good portion of this and the pure joy of programming the CoCo is
    >>not as much of a joy as you said it was. If the CoCo needs any type of new
    >
    >Another misquote, another assumption and another total strike-out in
    >the game of debate. In hope that you’ll actually be able to
    >understand and comprehend what we are talking about when it comes to
    >money, please go back and re-read that last part of my message yes,
    >the one you just read.
    >
    >>products, it is original or new things that extend it such as the IDE
    >>controller or new updated software and OS features. Games are great, but
    >>again, most of us have played pac-man to death already. I just don’t see
    the
    >>priority there.
    >
    >And I’m sure you’ve played something like Digger to death as well.
    >Hell, I played Rayman and Earthworm Jim to death. If didn’t keep me
    >from getting OddWorld. They’re all the same types of games…but
    >since they’re all the same types of games, to you it’s just a waste of
    >money isn’t it.
    >
    >You also make the assumption that everyone who has a CoCo also has an
    >I/c to keep Eric happy system or Mac or Linux or whatever. Many
    >don’t. I know several people, some on this list, that only had a CoCo
    >up until the past year.
    >
    >>Again, you have contradicted your early posts that said money was not a
    big
    >>deal. It obviously is. I wouldn’t attempt to create a serious CoCo product
    >>because of the small market. Any product I will create will be for the PC.
    I
    >
    >Since I’m getting tired of repeating myself on this matter, go back to
    >the top of this message and read my first few comments. Better yet,
    >read this message several times until you have it memorized, that way
    >the next time you quote somebody, you’ll get it right.
    >
    >>have a few PC shareware programs out there and have made a few $100 more
    >>than I expected on them, one even got a write up in a magazine. But, even
    >
    >I’m suprise you even bother to write programs. Even so, I would like
    >to see them.
    >
    >>with the low sales, I was not depressed, I didn’t go complaining to
    anyone.
    >>I really did do it for fun and thought I’d release to see what would
    happen.
    >>I have another program that I spent a reasonable amount of time on and I
    >>give it away free on my webpage, I may do a shareware version later.
    >
    >Of course not,. It’s hard to get upset when you release a program to
    >a market that is saturated with 1000′s of others just like it.
    >However, I don’t know of ANY Pacman or Digger type games for the CoCo
    >III.
    >
    >>Maybe, maybe not. If I had 50 committed and/or prepaid orders, yes. People
    >>will always express interest when asked about such things, that doesn’t
    >>guarantee a customer down the road.
    >
    >You definatly have no idea about the spirit of the CoCo or it’s users.
    >Sadly, I don’t think you ever will. You see, we are a small
    >community. A community that goes the extra mile just to help others
    >who need it. Things such as sending people free parts or locating
    >monitors or finding and typing up technical information, etc. We’re
    >not greedy or corporate types. We see that something is lacking and
    >we try to contribute something. All of the people here are patient
    >and giving people they have to be in order to put up with me. We try
    >to do what we can when we can for each other. Plain and simple.
    >Maybe you just don’t understand the mentatlity.
    >
    >>Yes you get what you pay for, but most purchase finished products.
    >
    >What are you trying to say with this?! We don’t have “finished”
    >products? Seems that is what you *ARE* implying.
    >
    >>Developers and Manufacturers must I know this might be hard to swallow
    >>take RISK! You make the product, you risk time, money, etc. It might do
    >>well, it might not. Welcome to the wonderful world of economics! No one
    owes
    >>you! You don’t owe the market. You decide what you want to RISK.
    >
    >Nick has already taken and I am about to. How much do you think an ad
    >costs? Where exactly do you think that money came from?
    >
    >>Sorry to get so blunt as I did in the message, I started by trying offer
    >>suggestions, but you obviously took offense. That wasn’t my intent.
    >
    >No, we don’t take offense to suggestions, but we do take offense to
    >the misquoting of opinions, mis-statement of facts, assinign
    >assumptions and accusations. I would appologize for being hard, but
    >to be truthful, I’m not sorry.
    >
    >
    >
    >…Chet…
    >

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:59:21 -0500
    Reply-To: Randy Cocek
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Randy Cocek
    Organization: Bell Northern Research
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    Chet Simpson wrote:
    >

    > As far as pushing the processing limits. You must not have any clue as to
    > what Digger II is all about OR what it does. There are games that scroll
    > horizontally and there are games that scroll vertically. However, I am
    > not aware of ANY on the CoCo III that scroll in all four directions
    > corrections are welcome.
    >
    >
    Didn’t Super Pitfall have 4-way scrolling?

    -RC

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:29:59 -4
    Reply-To: Chet Simpson
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    Comments: Authenticated sender is
    From: Chet Simpson

    Organization: Americast
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?
    In-Reply-To: <199802182003.MAA21244@thebrain>

    > Here’s a correction of a four-way scrolling game for the CoCoIII … and
    > this one is an OLD CoCo III game came out right away.
    >
    > Gauntlet II by Diecomm.
    >
    > Here’s some others: Super Pitfall
    > Sinistar it was called something else
    >

    Non of these did full screen scrolling. Digger II uses a full 320×192
    screen to scroll in all four directions. And actually, to correct my
    own previous statement, there was one other game which did this
    and it was called “Pac-Dude” which was a 3d version of PacMan.
    As I understand it, he didn’t get too many sales either and this was
    several years ago when the CoCo was much much bigger.

    > There were a few CoCoII games that were four-way scrollers also Gauntlet,
    > Draconian, Bouncing Boulders.

    Gantelet and Draconian both did not do full screen. Plus you talking
    a very BIG different in memory requirements 6k vs 32k per screen
    update.

    > 20 fps on a CoCo3 is pretty impressive… is this using hardware
    > scrolling? I’d have to assume to have a 4-way hardware scrolling game on
    > the CoCo, you’d need to have 512K.

    Yes, it requires 512k and does use the hardware scrolling as well as the
    virtual width 256 bytes wide but only 160 displayed at a time.

    > When I was developing on the CoCo3, I started on a Super-Mario Bros.
    > game horizontal non-hardware scrolling that was to work in 128K.
    > I was re-drawing the screen each frame, but never got it any faster than
    > 12 fps. The name for the game was going to be Super Guido Bros.

    After working with full screen redraws for scrolling it just wasn’t
    worth the time and effort even to attempt getting it working. If you’re
    using a portion of the screen, you can get away with it. If you are
    not too picky about how the sprites are blit to the screen, you can use
    the method in Gantelet II which was pretty ingenious.

    Actually, I’ve gone back and revisited the code for Digger and I am
    actually considering upping it to 30fps. It’s just a little work here
    and there and the changing of some of the hardlined routines.

    …Chet…

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:27:40 -0800
    Reply-To: Chet Simpson
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Chet Simpson
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    —–Original Message—–
    From: Randy Cocek
    To: Multiple recipients of list COCO
    Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 8:20 AM
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    >Chet Simpson wrote:
    >>
    >
    >> As far as pushing the processing limits. You must not have any clue as
    to
    >> what Digger II is all about OR what it does. There are games that scroll
    >> horizontally and there are games that scroll vertically. However, I am
    >> not aware of ANY on the CoCo III that scroll in all four directions
    >> corrections are welcome.
    >>
    >>
    >Didn’t Super Pitfall have 4-way scrolling?

    Yes, but it wasn’t full screen as Digger II was. Super Pitfall and others
    like it
    only used a portion of the screen. Digger II uses the full 320×192 area for
    scrolling.

    …Chet…

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:19:13 -0800
    Reply-To: Chet Simpson
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Chet Simpson
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    >You act like a bunch of great, nice, we’ll help you types. You are all so
    >mature. But, it isn’t showing in your responses. I have typed stuff that
    >was not what you wanted to hear, but I didn’t get heated until you started
    >getting so damed emotional and throwing flames my way.

    Just because we express our opinions about something does not mean
    that we are ‘getting emotional’. And what makes you *THINK* I don’t want
    to hear something? I’m interested in everyones opinion about the topic.
    I am however not to interested in comments made by somebody who
    makes unneeded assumptions about something and who doesn’t have
    any of their facts straight about what they are commenting on, just as
    you have. And the case in point is your consistent mis-quoting of people
    and your assumptions of what their products are.

    > I won’t waste my time going back to address all your heated points. I
    never

    It does no good to address points when you know you are wrong.

    >expected anything from any of you. I offered suggestions, for situations
    >you

    You’re suggestions are simply questionable to their feasibility and cost.

    >don’t like, that’s all. I could give a crap what you sell your programs
    for. I
    >don’t expect anything free, most people don’t. I’ll just end with a few
    points.
    >
    >1 I understand and respect the desire to support the coco community, I
    have
    >no problem with that, I am sure no one does.

    You obviously have some issues with something or you wouldn’t have
    posted in the first place.

    >2 Business is Business. It’s great if one can do well at something they
    >like, but for the last time, there are no guarantees! I hope you do make
    >money or at the worst, break even for your expenses…but are you really
    >surprised at some of the results? I Honestly don’t see how.

    Yes, actually I AM suprised. The CoCo community has always been of one
    that makes every attempt to support not only the users, but the vendors and
    the clubs as well. So yes it does suprise me when people stop supporting
    something that they say is so important to them…..a lack of support means
    that the CoCo will lose much ground very soon. That just isn’t something
    I would like to see when it can be prevented.

    >Finally, I can’t let this one go since you went to what I’d call feeble
    >lengths to justify it. Pac-Man. If you are so sure Nick didn’t violate
    >anything here in doing a remake and selling it, why not contact the owners

    Funny, I already did. Although I didn’t go into specifics I did get a
    response
    concerning the issue. They don’t really care. And there isn’t a whole lot
    that they can do about it and no copyright violations have occured.

    >of the real Pac-Man and ask them what they think and see what happens. The
    >only thing that is original is the code. That doesn’t make it right.

    >What a bunch of self righteous idiots!

    Gee, that’s probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me on this
    list. Thanks!

    > I have seen the messages in the past indicating that piracy is bad, legal
    >copies is good. It’s no different here, just a different way of breaking
    >someone’s copyright.

    Wow, I wonder who was at the forefront of that arguement being bombarded
    by users about my stance….couldn’t have been me, I’m the self-righteous
    idiot. You also have copyright confused with trademarks and patents.
    Unfortunatly, you failed to do your homework in any of these areas. The
    fact that Nick DID write all of the code on his own on a different
    processor no less constitutes an original work. In the case of PacMan, the
    original developer did not forsee that an immense need for protecting what
    they
    had developed it was expected PacMan would be a dismal failure, so
    they saw no need. The characters were never trademarked and the
    whatever implementation details that could be patented never were. This is
    definatly shown by the number of ‘clones’ that resemble the PacMan type
    of game. The only possible infringement of copyright is the name, and it
    would
    not be very difficult to change the name. There have always been clones of
    video games, some are actual bootleg ripoffs of the original, some are
    copies
    which are written from scratch, and others are just based on the same idea.

    You have your own opinions and your own views, that’s just fine and
    dandy. However, you really should think about things before you say
    them as trying to imply or even outright saying that somebody *IS*
    violating copyright laws really adds nothing to why anyone should even
    care what you have to say.

    …Chet…

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:31:23 EST
    Reply-To: Stephen Disney
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Stephen Disney
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    Hello,
    Am I the only one getting tired of this argument. However Chet or any
    one else responded to your message, I don’t think they deserve the
    ripping that you gave them. I, for one, am tired of the attitudes
    showing up in my in-box. The answer is: agree to disagree on this one
    and respect each other, even if only because we are all here to support
    the coco.
    Drop It!,
    Stephen

    p.s. Why can’t we all just get along?

    ______________________________________________________
    Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:52:48 GMT
    Reply-To: Derek Snider
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: Derek Snider
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    Chet Simpson csimpson [at] AMERICASTTV [dot] COM wrote:

    : Digger II is mostly an original concept. The game play, the action, the
    methods
    : and the AI of the enemies. The only thing that isn’t is the premise of the
    game
    : which is based on the original LoadRunner game, which I doubt very highly you
    : have ever seen.

    : As far as pushing the processing limits. You must not have any clue as to
    : what Digger II is all about OR what it does. There are games that scroll
    : horizontally and there are games that scroll vertically. However, I am
    : not aware of ANY on the CoCo III that scroll in all four directions
    : corrections are welcome.

    Here’s a correction of a four-way scrolling game for the CoCoIII … and
    this one is an OLD CoCo III game came out right away.

    Gauntlet II by Diecomm.

    Here’s some others: Super Pitfall
    Sinistar it was called something else

    There were a few CoCoII games that were four-way scrollers also Gauntlet,
    Draconian, Bouncing Boulders.

    20 fps on a CoCo3 is pretty impressive… is this using hardware
    scrolling? I’d have to assume to have a 4-way hardware scrolling game on
    the CoCo, you’d need to have 512K.

    When I was developing on the CoCo3, I started on a Super-Mario Bros.
    game horizontal non-hardware scrolling that was to work in 128K.
    I was re-drawing the screen each frame, but never got it any faster than
    12 fps. The name for the game was going to be Super Guido Bros.
    ———————————————————————
    : Internet Direct. Have you heard about our :
    : 416233-2999, 1000 lines Do-It-Yourself Webserver? :
    : T3 bandwidth, 9600-33,600bps+ISDN http://web.idirect.com :
    ———————————————————————

  • pucc_unknown

    Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:00:05 -0600
    Reply-To: PAULSHOE [at] prodigy [dot] net
    Sender: COCO – Tandy Color Computer List
    From: PAULSHOE Organization: Prodigy Internet
    Subject: Re: The CoCo Market – $20 Ripoff Games?

    Stephen Disney wrote:
    >
    > Hello,
    > Am I the only one getting tired of this argument. However Chet or any
    > one else responded to your message, I don’t think they deserve the
    > ripping that you gave them. I, for one, am tired of the attitudes
    > showing up in my in-box. The answer is: agree to disagree on this one
    > and respect each other, even if only because we are all here to support
    > the coco.
    > Drop It!,
    > Stephen
    >
    > p.s. Why can’t we all just get along?
    >

    Hear,hear!

    Paul